A Look into Atheism.

[Azimaith]

I've been wondering for a very long long time, the idea of morality is very strong in most well off peoples lives. When you look at morals where do they come from? gods or godesses? Some sort of supernatural entity? Or are they simply delusions we humans create in arrogance, something that sets us apart from the animals?
As I go on if you believe in god, gods, ect strongly I would expect your answer is very clear so this is for people who still wonder. While what I say may sound cold, or even down right evil, I ask you for this one post to think without judging immediately.

Now that the disclaimers done with i'll go into my thread.

Atheism
Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
Godlessness; immorality.

When I think about all that immunity to punishment could do I wonder, are we really all that subject to punishment in the first place? If you believe in no higher power, you are basically untouchable in death, and your life itself will mean nothing but what you want it to. It is my belief the birth of morals came from two seperate but vital parts of civilization and a third of psychological gratification.

1: The desire for a higher power which through you can extend your own ability. Eg. A man kills someone dear to you then commits suicide, therefore he will burn in hell for eternity, the extension of power beyond what you can do physically.

2: The basic rules required for society to function in a mutually beneficial way.

3: By the logic, since I am more than the animals I must have rules to contain my power, the assumption of human value is greater than that of animals.

Now though I may be an atheist I do believe in the value of laws, whatever their roots they provide the backbone for the comforable familiarity I have with society. Laws in their most basic forms are based off of rules we need for society to function productively.
I'll take some of the basic ones.

Murder is illegal, this is common in most cultures, murder of another reduced the overall effectiveness of the whole as well as creates takers, people who don't want to work when they can just kill someone and take theirs. I don't believe humans have an innate aversion to killing their own kind, this is put into us by civilization I believe.

2: Stealing is Illegal, once again the same as murder but to a different degree, why work if it can be stolen away so easily? After you reach a point where you can no longer defend your self you stop working cutting productivity.

3: It is illegal to speak falsely. Now naturally in modern society this is restricted to contracts and such, trust is a valuable resource and it streamlines the process of trade which is enabled by both 2-3. Very very efficient I think. Now these may be laws imposed by society but we also have religious laws imposed by a belief in a divine being which could punish you should you cross it.
A well known religious law for certain religions is you shall not adulter, now if we think to the basics of animal instincts most animals don't adulter exactly, well only to a certain degree. Lets take a look at a pride of lions.

A male lion fights for dominance and beats the rival male, the previous leader of the pride, after he leaves the new male lays claims to the females of the tribe then kills the offspring of the previous male. Could this be considered adultery? A lack of a system of life bonding makes this hard to determine, basically the law seems to be, if you can't defend it with tooth and claw then it is not yours (Well not for long at least)
This is a good inkling to me at least that if we consider man an animal then morals are not intrinsic to the universe, they are not a property. By a property I mean something like gravity, we don't see it but we know its there as it pulls us to the center of the planet.
Morals are less tangible than gravity, an idea, an electrical signal unless enforced by massive amounts of the same ideal, thereby we have organized religion, the mass perpetuation of moral structure. Are morals really so frail as to hang by the thread of mortality? Once those bearing the idea die without passing it the entire topic dissapears, if people all stopped believing in gravity they would still be pulled toward the earths center as always.
Thereby atheism is the primary means by which morals are taken from minds and put into stone or ink. A permenant tangible morality is the first step into atheism is it not? Laws are now born of loss of faith. Without the belief in divine retribution or the lack of care whether it happens or not leads to human law, a law that punishes you now, tangibly, and physically, a morality you've no choice but to follow.
Deities are losing strength as laws take hold of society. Its rare you hear today, "I didn't do it because it was wrong" Rather its more along the lines of "I didn't do it because I didn't want to get in trouble." Lets think truthfully for a moment, I don't care whether you feel the need to put down the supposed "right answer" trully believe the "right answer" or answer otherwise but its good to think yourself.

If I were immune to punishment, what would I do?

And in this thought is the essence of godhood, if you were immune to punishment you could do anything and not suffer for it combined with the belief in no greater power this makes a mortal god. How many people in this forum would reach for mortal godhood in this situation? I could guess most would.
Now as I go further into atheism it seems somewhat murky why it came about. During the older ages of the world religion was vital, absolute, and the driving force behind hundreds of things. Is it because we believe we are wiser now? Smarter than our predecessors and no longer needing the crutch of theology to slow us down? Arrogance perhaps? The idea of self policing to say "We don't need to answer to anyone but our selves, we can do it on our own anyhow." Perhaps just the vain stretching as close as we can toward mortal godhood?
Though nowadays I understand many believe its "in style" to be jaded, bored with the world, and "independant". Atheism is often taken as a piece of clothing for the entire look. True atheists really don't have much to fear that pretenders do. Lets say you don't believe in life after death, then death is nothing to fear, in fact, religion believing in life after death generates MORE fear and apprehension for many people as they worry about being cast into Gehenna or ascending to Elysium, nirvana, or whatever you want to call it. Why would a religion do this to others? Is it to keep them in line to the point of their death or simply an oversight by the religions creator?

I'll probably edit this post later but I would really like posts on the nature of atheism and theology from everyone. Theres been too much politics I think and not enough philosophy..

[ 09-09-2003, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: Azimaith ]

[Harkoliar]

interesting points there. to me each has his/her own beliefs in life. there is no right or wrong in his belief as long it doenst hurt people in any way. and that itself is my belief for other people.


my belief is a mix or a moderate view of both chrisitanity and satanism (not worhiping satan but wiccan theology).

True atheists really don't have much to fear that pretenders do. Lets say you don't believe in life after death, then death is nothing to fear, in fact, religion believing in life after death generates MORE fear and apprehension for many people as they worry about being cast into Gehenna or ascending to Elysium, nirvana, or whatever you want to call it. Why would a religion do this to others? Is it to keep them in line to the point of their death or simply an oversight by the religions creator?

i for one hate people using religion to keep them in line. it leads to abuse and fear to those victims.

[The Hierophant]

Life is a dream, death is a fantasy. Consciousness is a static image projected by compounded chemical reactions whirring together in an orgy of fusion and dissipation. Every instant has already been, and is yet to come. You are nothing, and all things, simultaneously. Your mind and body are the vessels through which time flows as it observes itself with blissful ignorance to it's role as the intigator of all matter and energy. For the mind to look for a meaning of life is akin to the eye trying to see itself from within. You are God, just as You do not exist at all. What can you possibly be but a co-operative commune of cells? What can the cells be but a co-operative commune of atoms? No, the mind invents the universe, while forced into creative tyrrany by the forces that forged it's own existence. You will never die, just as you have never lived. You are just time, watching itself, thinking itself to be old, when really it hasn't even left the womb.

But all this shit can give you a headache. Who wants beer and pretzels?

[WOLFGIR]

Personally I think you have missed the most important aspects actually to what morales is and where they come from.

1. Parents, relatives, freinds and grown ups will affect a young person grreatly, either good or bad. But as always it is not set in stone.

2. Life. Life will teach you right or wrong due to what you live through.

Well add them or not, but I think there is more to the morality issued then just believing in a god or not. Alot more.

[Faceman]

Atheism opposed to Agnosticism is still a form of belief. An Atheist believes that there is no god while an Agnosticist (whom I consider myself to be) simply states that he does not belief that there is a god but concedes that there might be a god. Kant proved that the existence of god cannot be proved and I chose to found my morale on other grounds. Being atheistic does not make me immoral. At this point in life I have found myself to belief in law (like you stated you do) and its ability to make our society work.

Originally posted by Azimaith: I don't believe humans have an innate aversion to killing their own kind, this is put into us by civilization I believe.

Most animals and therefore also humans DO have an innate aversion to killing their own kind. It's one of natures primary means of ensuring the surviving of a a species. In fact killing your own kind is mostly a product of society and "brainy" interaction and commonly not based solely on instinct.

Atheism or Agnosticism are IMHO for people who don't need religion to make their social life and their part in society work. I contribute to society because I want it to progress. You could call me a believer in society. As everybody is searching for the "meaning of life" religions provide a nice answer while atheism does not in the first place. I for instance have chosen to belief that the meaning of life is to ensure the continuing existence and improvement of humankind. And to make it more philosophical: As for now nobody can find the meaning of life but if progression of humankind is ensured maybe some day someone will and I'm willing to contribute to that.
What you however stated correctly is that atheism can be a dangerous belief for people who do found their morals on beliefs of personal gain. These are IMHO most people and (I know this is a bit presumptous) I think they are not ready for Atheism yet. A main problem of modern society is that atheism (not agnosticism which would defy this by its own nature) is promoted like a religion as it is a belief yet cannot fullfill the purposes of religion.

[Lady Blue03]

While i don't believe in any sort of higher power, heaven, hell, angels, whatever, I still have a clear sense in my mind of what is right and wrong, and that can be influenced by various things, as Woflgir stated.

Last year my AP Lit class took a practice multiple choice test with a passage on atheism. I'll see if i can find it and post a certain passage i can remember as a good one. It did go something along the lines of an Atheist being able to focus on thing like reputation, ect., since he knows his action won't be judged by a higher power that determines where he goes after death.

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Lady Blue03: since he knows his action won't be judged by a higher power that determines where he goes after death

Does he know it? Really? I'm sure he knows it as much as religious people know that their God exists. I.e. they don't really know, they just believe in it.

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Life is a dream, death is a fantasy. Consciousness is a static image projected by compounded chemical reactions whirring together in an orgy of fusion and dissipation. Every instant has already been, and is yet to come. You are nothing, and all things, simultaneously. Your mind and body are the vessels through which time flows as it observes itself with blissful ignorance to it's role as the intigator of all matter and energy. For the mind to look for a meaning of life is akin to the eye trying to see itself from within. You are God, just as You do not exist at all. What can you possibly be but a co-operative commune of cells? What can the cells be but a co-operative commune of atoms? No, the mind invents the universe, while forced into creative tyrrany by the forces that forged it's own existence. You will never die, just as you have never lived. You are just time, watching itself, thinking itself to be old, when really it hasn't even left the womb.

Did you make all that up yourself??


Azimaith: Agh man! Use paragraphs! Humans are not optimised for reading HUGE chunks of unformatted text! Agh my eyes!

[ 09-09-2003, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Vaskez: Did you make all that up yourself??

haha. It's just what I think Vask, it's just what I think... but it could very well be wrong. Come to 'think' of it, if it's just what I think, then by logical progression it would be just what a small localised perception mechanism of time thinks... in which case, if it's part of what time itself thinks, then it wouldn't be wrong, just innacurate as time itself is the dictator of material movement and experience... but maybe that's illogical too. Maybe the cells in my brain arn't co-operating properly and I'm slowly going insane... hmmmmm... but maybe some forms of 'insanity' are just the net result of the material mind percieving it's origins and true nature and revolting against itself as a result... I dunno. I need more caffeine...

[Azred]

One day after reading several dozen books about philosophy, theology, existence, etc. your brain will misfire. [img]graemlins/1drool.gif[/img] After you recover from this you will realize that now is all you have and that the quality of your life depends upon whether or not you are making yourself and those around you happy, as well as doing no harm to others. Trust me, you won't have to think about whether you're getting it right because you will know when you have it right.

Life is simple...quit tyring so hard! [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]