Balrogs in AD&D?

Originally posted by wellard: The balrog has wings? "falls into the crevice and climbs to the top of the mountin?" if planes had wings like these they would be called cars [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Penguins and ostriches have wings......

[Attalus]

Originally posted by wellard: The balrog has wings? "falls into the crevice and climbs to the top of the mountin?" if planes had wings like these they would be called cars [img]tongue.gif[/img]

LOL, the oldest argument in Tokiendom. For what it is worth, I am a card-carrying member of the No-they-weren't-wings-they-were-shadows-shaped-like wings School. See here. If they had functional wings, they wouldn't be falling to their doom all of the time.

Attalus, falling to its doom down a big chasm, just goes to show you, that wings (no matter how functional) are useless if you don't have the room to flap them...and from the description in that passage of FotR it says his wings spanned the width of the place it was in before it fell into said chasm with Gandalf so it probably needed a lot of space to flap them....You also have to realize Balrogs were not originally underground inhabitants...they crept into the deep places to hide fromt he wrath of the Valar. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I say they had wings if they wanted them [img]smile.gif[/img] Since many a mair got to choose its physical form....Sauron himself a Mair was able to take any shape he wanted before he got stomped on in the sinking of Numenor.


[ 06-17-2003, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Attalus]

Yes, but Sauron, a Maia, lost his ability to change shape when he caused the Downfall of Numenor. Melkor the Morgoth similarly lost his when he let his power go out into Arda. The Balrogs are thought to have lost their ability to change shape when they became incarnated into an earthly body. And, don''t forget, the chasm wasn't the only time Durin's Bane fell. Gandalf cast it off Zirak-Zigil, and he fell to his death "and smote the mountain-side in his ruin." Plenty of room to spread his wings, then, if functional.

edit-to correct quote

[ 06-17-2003, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Attalus ]

[Night Stalker]

That's also true Att, but a critically injured being is not going to have the strength needed to fly. By the time that they reached the summit, they had been in heated battle. I am of the opinion that the blow that Gandalf dealt was mortal, and the fall just closed the deal.

Again the description of the wings from Tolkien's own words.

[Attalus]

To quote the article that I linked to, above: "But if a figurative reading is unsupportable, and a descriptive reading leads to absurdity, how, then, the dilemma to be resolved? By distinguishing, as Tolkien always does, the Balrog's own form from the zone of shadow and terror it carries with it: What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape, maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it. (FOtR) The Balrog itself is never said to have wings or an actual ability to fly. It is the Balrog's shadow which appears like wings. The "figurative" camp concede that the shadow of the Balrog is mutable: after all, the figure of speech only makes sense if the shadow actually reached out like wings and then spread from wall to wall. In this they are right. They go wrong only when they insist that the description refers to the size, general motion, and menacing terror of the shadow, but not to the particular form it took."

Attalus as the man said...they had been fighting for quite a while and Gandalf himself laid down and died after the fight...I doubt the thing could have summoned the strength to fly.

I read that link and the debators are making concessions that I would not. As written JRRT litterally said this Balrog had wings...either you accept that or you accept that while being so careful and precise in the rest of the book, he got sloppy here...I don't think so.

Of course we will never know since the source of the material is dead....I suppose we could ask his heirs....that at least would be a semi-official ruling..therwise its all mere speculation [img]smile.gif[/img]

***tucks pointy horns and barbed tail out of sight***

[Chewbacca]

I'm with the "has wings" side of the Balrog issue. The wings are part of it's menacing form like described in the books. I have doubts if these wings were meant for flight though. They can still serve a purpose for threat and intimidation factors, much like a puffer fish gets all big and puffy when threatened. Did I just compare a Balrog with a puffer fish? [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img]

If I were a Balrog that could fly, I would have left those stinkin Dwarf ruins and the weak puny orcs behind along time ago.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by MagiK: I read that link and the debators are making concessions that I would not. As written JRRT litterally said this Balrog had wings...either you accept that or you accept that while being so careful and precise in the rest of the book, he got sloppy here...I don't think so.

JRRT wrote: "the shadow about it [the Balrog] reached out like two vast wings. (Italics mine) Note the "like", the sign of a simile. Then, "its wings were spread from wall to wall." The crucial passage. But, the above passage had already noted that the wings were merely the shape of the shadow. As you say, if you read the passage as careful and precise, it follows that all the Balrog was doing wa manipulating shadow as another Maia, Ungoliant, did.