Did Balrogs have wings?

[Attalus]

I'm on another forum (now down, alas) where it is actually forbidden to discuss this subject. But, we are freeer here, so I am going to open the whole can of worms. Did Balrogs have wings? We know that the Moria balrog was "flying from the ruin of Thangorodrim" and had "the shadow about it spread out like vast wings." (Both from "The Bridge of Khazad-Dum," FOTR). But if it had wings, why did it fall into the Abyss beneath Helm's Bridge? Was Galdalf's "ever hewing" him (presumably with Glamdring) interfering? I would like your thoughts.

[ 02-02-2003, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Attalus ]

[Larry_OHF]

<font color=skyblue>How dare you bring that up here!
You have some nerve, mister.
From now on...this topic is banned from IW, and nobody is ever allowed to discuss the theory of winged Balrogs.

I shall not warn you again!<font color=white>

~*Gigglz*~</font>

If you want my opinion, without any real material to back me...the wings of the Balrog are not actual functioning wings...and the shadow and flames that surround him takes on a wing-like appearance to establish his power. Christian art follows the same concept. </font>

[Tancred]

The Balrog... I've always felt that it seems more like the old norse Fire Giant (firey, lives underground, mane of hair) rather than the Christian devil (Tolkien's a catholic, he wouldn't go there)... and that it should look like a 12-foot human shadow wrapped in flame. Norse mythology would have been very much Tolkien's stoping ground.

'the shadow that wrapped about it like two vast wings'... the Shadow is one of the many names the people of Middle-Earth use for the force of Evil, and is a physical presence rather than a literal blocking-out of light. I don't imagine the Balrog as having a literal physical shape.

'It was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a form, of man-shape maybe, and yet greater...'

Somewhere it DOES say that the Balrog's 'wings spread from wall to wall', but the First Hall was vast... surely bigger than this one creature, no matter how mighty. We're talking a quarter of a mile wide here. I can imagine shadowy wing-like appendages spreading and flowing out like smoke to spread across the hall, though.

I kind of subscribe to the no-wings view. Mind you, though, if it had wings, there's lots of reasons why it couldn't have flown out... it had no opportunity to gain purchase on the air before plummeting, or maybe after having been underground for so long, its' wings had atrophied (or the demonic equivalent). [img]smile.gif[/img] In the film, it looked like the chasm was too narrow for it to properly spread its' wings... I'd have liked to see Gandalf cripple one of its' wings on the way down, though.

[Attalus]

I, too, subscribe to the wingless view. There is no mention in The Silmarillion of Balrogs flying when it would have been to their clear benefit to do so. The Siege of Gondolin, for example.

[Lavindathar]

<font color="cyan">Hmmm, I'm not sure. The film showed wings.

And they fell into a HUGE cavern (just before they hit water)

Flight could have been attained there though!

P.S - Why was it banned?</font>

[ 02-02-2003, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Lavindathar ]

[arion windrider]

hi lav.. i think lav has wings heh heh... balors in the monster manual has wings... i dont know what to believe...

[Tancred]

Originally posted by Lavindathar: <font color="cyan">Hmmm, I'm not sure. The film showed wings. And they fell into a HUGE cavern (just before they hit water) Flight could have been attained there though! P.S - Why was it banned?</font>

Well... in a film you've got to show something. In the book, you never get a clear look at the creature... you only see shadow and flame.

If your forum was anything like mine, Attalus, the topic of Balrog Wings was banned because of the vicious and drawn-out flame wars it always causes. The War of the Wing is still remembered 3 years hence at alt.fan.tolkien.

[Olorin]

Originally posted by Attalus: I'm on another forum (now down, alas) where it is actually forbidden to discuss this subject. But, we are freeer here, so I am going to open the whole can of worms. Did Balrogs have wings? We know that the Moria balrog was "flying from the ruin of Thangorodrim" and had "the shadow about it spread out like vast wings." (Both from "The Bridge of Khazad-Dum," FOTR). But if it had wings, why did it fall into the Abyss beneath Helm's Bridge? Was Galdalf's "ever hewing" him (presumably with Glamdring) interfering? I would like your thoughts.

I believe that Balrogs do not have wings, or at least do not have flight-capable wings. It was said that one of the few ways to kill them was to cast them down from a great height, which wouldn't work too well if they could fly.

Also, as the quote says "spread out LIKE vast wings" it implies that there were not true wings. Also in "flying from the ruin", flying could be an alternative to fleeing, and not referring to flight through the air. Tolkien uses "flight" to describe retreats quite often.

As Gandalf was dragged off the Bridge of Khazad-dum, he says "Fly, you fools"
The chapter in the Silmarillion about the Noldor forsaking Valinor and pursuing Morgoth to Middle-Earth is entitled "Of the Flight of the Noldor"
Since "flying from the ruins" is in the same context, it can't be used as proof that Balrogs could literally fly.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Lavindathar: <font color="cyan"> And they fell into a HUGE cavern (just before they hit water) Flight could have been attained there though! P.S - Why was it banned?</font>

As Tancred says, Lavi, it was banned because of the protracted flamewars that always broke out if someone started discussing it. Apparently, there is nothing like Balrogs to bring out the beast in the most mild-mannered Tolkein lover. We also had a long discussion about whether theyu could talk.

[Link]

Originally posted by Tancred: If your forum was anything like mine, Attalus, the topic of Balrog Wings was banned because of the vicious and drawn-out flame wars it always causes. The War of the Wing is still remembered 3 years hence at alt.fan.tolkien.

What's your forum then, Tancred. I don't know about the Balrog, by the way. I'll think about it.