questions,questions......................and some comments

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by rily83: 3)Supposedly with the latest ToB patch Jesters actually can do more than confuse, now theres stun and slow at level 20, which sounds kinda cool. Has anyone tried it?

That's the Rogue Rebalancing mod that does that, not ToB. ToB simply adds the HLA of Enhanced Bard Song, which allows all Bards (including the Jester) to change their Song into that of a high-level Skald.

2)Well the kid description for monk doesnt say anything about a +4 fist at level 25. Perhaps theres a mod which changes this?

I've never played a Monk, but the table I put together (from many reputable sources) states a +4 enchantment at Level 25. That's a ToB addition, you see, and the Kit Descriptions commonly only include details relevant to SoA levels.

1)Ok Prince Villy is now lying in pieces in Sahaugin city. So I have 1 part of the wave and trying to figure out who to kill to get the next one. Help?

I already told you this.

6)Not trying to be a wimp or anything but Tactics sounds really hard from the description given. I took Ascension instead, because it seemed a little easier at that time.

Tactics increases the difficulty (often to ludicrous levels), yes. That's what it's for. The added challenge makes things more interesting and, hopefully, fun. It is NOT for anyone who is relatively new to the game.

Originally posted by Jim: Yes, the Swashbuckler will eventually become a superior fighter - there's no disputing that, but I'm not sure that the Swashbuckler is more valuable in the game. What does the Swashbuckler have over the Blade versatility wise?

Well, versatility-wise, the Swashbuckler has the advantage of being able to get the party through Watcher's Keep and the Marching Mountains in one piece, and sneak around at a moment's notice, instead of just being a poor substitute for a Warrior. The Blade, on the other hand, can, umm....mumble a tune that does essentially nothing, and cast a few low-level spells.

This is not even counting UAI. Once UAI is called into play, then the Swashbuckler is pretty much immune to any physical attacks that don't come from people like Abazigal, and makes the Swashbuckler able to match the Blade spell for spell. There's also the fact that the Swashbuckler's THAC0 also applies to missile weapons, making him a better archer than a Blade (or Sharpshooter kit from G3) could ever be.

As for Nalia, she has the spell buffing yes, but dual wielding? Amazingly bad THAC0 combined with penalties from only being able to use 1* in Two Weapon Style? Even with significant spell buffing she isn't going to be hitting much anytime soon.

Ahem. Mirror Image + PfMW + Improved Haste.
Staff of the Magi.
Time Stop.
Whack.
Belm + Kundane.
Another Time Stop.
Dead Pontifex.
Total party hitpoint loss: 0
You were saying?

A Blade could do this, true, but only by using Vhailor's Helm.

[TheGodThatFailed]

But a blade still COULD. I have to say, i solo'd a blade and became a real nasty figher.Then wehn you chuck a few spells around you're unstoppable.Meh, i'll always love the blade.

[Kestrel Daystar]

Right. The Wave Blade pieces can be found:

i) If you save Haer'dalis (A very good bard) from Mekrath then go to the playhouse in the Bridge District, the actors there will perform a spell which opens a portal to another plane. That plane is a prison where the actors are now held in. In that prison there is a cambion called the Warden. If you kill him you will find the shaft to the Wave Blade on his body.

ii) Later on in the game, you will come to the Sanguin City. After you go through that storyline you have to side with the king (or kill the prince after you help him if your evil). You will do some wuests and then have to murder the prince. As far as I know it is the prince with the Blade to the weapon so take it of his dead body.

That should do the trick. When you get back to Athkatla, go to Cromwell and he will assemble the Blade [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Jim]

Well, versatility-wise, the Swashbuckler has the advantage of being able to get the party through Watcher's Keep and the Marching Mountains in one piece, and sneak around at a moment's notice, instead of just being a poor substitute for a Warrior. The Blade, on the other hand, can, umm....mumble a tune that does essentially nothing, and cast a few low-level spells.

Your post has merit, but everything you've suggested a Blade can do too. Traps can be disarmed via Mirror Image / stoneskin and locks opened via knock. Sneeking around at a moments notice? A single level 2 spell will grant much longer invisibility without needing skill point checks each round that will always fail if an enemy is on screen. It seems to me that you are trying to put the Blade down because they do not excel in any one area - moderate warrior skills and moderate spellcasting, but combining the two makes for a capable character. The THAC0 may well stop decreasing at 10, but with helmets, gauntlets, STR enhancing items, magical weapons and effective dual wielding, the THAC0 reaches a state that makes the warrior abilities of the Blade more than capable of dealing with around 95% of enemies. Being able to use chainmail and helmets effectively matches the slow improving AC bonus of the Swashbuckler in the early stages of the game. Then there's the spell buffing. To top this off, the Blade has the Offensive Spin ability which will dish out more damage than even the very high level Swashbucklers, and against even the toughest melee opponents, Defensive Spin = problem solved. It is combining all these abilities into one character that makes the campaign so easy to do with a blade.

I'm not trying to say that Blades will always be better than Swashbucklers, since I like them both very much, I am simply suggesting that Blades are far, far from useless if used properly.

This is not even counting UAI. Once UAI is called into play, then the Swashbuckler is pretty much immune to any physical attacks that don't come from people like Abazigal, and makes the Swashbuckler able to match the Blade spell for spell. There's also the fact that the Swashbuckler's THAC0 also applies to missile weapons, making him a better archer than a Blade (or Sharpshooter kit from G3) could ever be.

Immune to physical attacks? Surely you jest! DoE+Ronarchs Horn+Jans Adventure Wear(tm) is all a thief can muster through UAI. Lacking AoF, Hardiness and the innate physical defense of a barbarian leaves the thief/bard open to damage from all attacks. Haer'Dalis will beat this due to his natural resistance to physical attacks regardless. A bard doesn't even need UAI to use the DoE or Ronarchs Horn which is a immediate bonus.

If you are referring to spell protections cast from scrolls - again a Blade can do this without UAI so it's pretty much even stevens. If you are referring to a godly AC that can barely be touched, again the Blade has the defensive spin ability, which combined with any armour combination that the Swashbuckler can muster will always be better that the swashbucklers AC bonuses. Sure, the Blade can't move in this state (unless you cheese it with Free Action) but enemies in the game that threaten a great AC will always come to the character anyway. Ultimately - offensive spin matches the offensive capabilities of a Swashbuckler (the Blade is lacking +7 to hit in the most extreme case, but this will only cause problems in the most extreme battles for which spells such as TT will help, or even potions of power if need be), defensive spin surpasses the AC bonus of the Swashbuckler and the spell buffs of the Bard will give him the fighting advantage until the Swashbuckler reaches godly levels.

Ahem. Mirror Image + PfMW + Improved Haste. Staff of the Magi. Time Stop. Whack. Belm + Kundane. Another Time Stop. Dead Pontifex. Total party hitpoint loss: 0 You were saying? A Blade could do this, true, but only by using Vhailor's Helm.

I stand corrected....Nalia can effectively dual wield once she reaches an extremely high level, or is lucky enough to find a scroll of Time Stop somewhere, as well as possessing arguably the most powerful weapon in the game in her inventory.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by TheGodThatFailed: I have to say, i solo'd a blade and became a real nasty figher.Then wehn you chuck a few spells around you're unstoppable.Meh, i'll always love the blade.

Any character becomes a god at high levels, especially in solo games. The question is, who does it better?

List of things where a Blade beats a Fighter/Mage:
Bard Song that barely does anything
A weakened version of the least useful Thieving skill
Woo! High Lore!
Running around real fast

List of things where a Fighter/Mage beats a Blade:
THAC0
AC
Saving Throws
ApR
Hitpoints
Spellslots
Spell levels
Equipment restrictions
Stronghold (not really a power consideration, but still)
Race restrictions

Originally posted by Jim: Traps can be disarmed via Mirror Image / stoneskin and locks opened via knock. A single level 2 spell will grant much longer invisibility without needing skill point checks each round that will always fail if an enemy is on screen.

True, that is possible, but I prefer to gain EXP from things like that, instead of using up perfectly good spells that I'd rather use against enemies. (The flip side of that is that the Swashbuckler can't cast spells like Stoneskin and PfMW from memory, of course, but happily there are far fewer battles that would encourage a Swashbuckler's use of those spells than there are Traps in the game.) As for Stealth, you know perfectly well that it's only HiS that will always fail if there's an enemy in your visual range--MS works just fine. If a Swashbuckler needs to vanish when there's a bad guy in sight, a simple Potion will do the trick, and when's the last time you were short of Invisibility Potions?

It seems to me that you are trying to put the Blade down because they do not excel in any one area - moderate warrior skills and moderate spellcasting, but combining the two makes for a capable character.

Capable? Yes. Since all the Blade kits have been soloed all through the game, then by definition they are capable characters. I am simply down on Bards because they are so almost completely eclipsed by the other classes, especially multiclasses. I don't mind a character not being really useful all the time, that'd be too much to expect from anyone. But when I notice that I never say to myself, "Boy, it's a good thing I've got Haer'Dalis in the party!", I tend to file that as a black mark.

The THAC0 may well stop decreasing at 10, but with helmets, gauntlets, STR enhancing items, magical weapons and effective dual wielding, .... the Blade [becomes] more than capable of dealing with around 95% of enemies. Being able to use chainmail and helmets effectively matches the slow improving AC bonus of the Swashbuckler in the early stages of the game. .... Offensive Spin ability which will dish out more damage than even the very high level Swashbucklers, .... Defensive Spin = problem solved.

Since Bards and Thieves use the same combat numbers, and a Thief can use Ioun Stones, THAC0 gauntlets, STR Girdles, magical weapons, effective dual-wielding, and some nice leather (all good armors in the game have roughly equivalent AC, compare the Melodic Chain with The Night's Gift), the equation boils down to this:
A Blade can kick some major ass when buffed to the gills.
A Swashbuckler is kickass 24/7.

I'm not trying to say that Blades will always be better than Swashbucklers, since I like them both very much, I am simply suggesting that Blades are far, far from useless if used properly.

True. I would remove the second 'far,' though.

Immune to physical attacks? Surely you jest! DoE+Ronarchs Horn+Jans Adventure Wear(tm) is all a thief can muster through UAI.

Oh, I wasn't referring to Resistances, simply to not getting hit at all. The Swashbuckler owns the title of Lowest Permanent AC in the Game (the lowest AC the game will recognize, in fact), and with a few Stoneskin scrolls saved for emergencies, who cares about Physical Resists when there ain't nothing gonna touch you?

I stand corrected....Nalia can effectively dual wield once she reaches an extremely high level, or is lucky enough to find a scroll of Time Stop somewhere, as well as possessing arguably the most powerful weapon in the game in her inventory.

Oh, the Staff is only there to knock away Ponty's Stoneskins, doing this technique without it would only require another Time Stop, which would put Nalia at.....4.5 million EXP, which is within the scope of SoA (not even entering WK) with Tactics installed.
As for the alleged rarity of Time Stop scrolls, there are 5 of them in unmodded SoA.
As for Dual-wielding in general, I only picked Nalia as the worst possible example; why Dual with her when she's just fine with Tuigan or Gesen?

[Jim]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: ...List of things where a Blade beats a Fighter/Mage: Bard Song that barely does anything A weakened version of the least useful Thieving skill Woo! High Lore! Running around real fast

Bard Song - agreed, that sucks. A certain ToB HLA nullifies this disadvantage though.

A weakened version of the least useful Thieving skill - True, although there are a couple of instances where being able to pick pockets is useful.

High Lore - simply a time/money saver, although a F/M will have no issues idenfitying anything anyway.

Running around real fast - I assume you mean via Offensive Spin combined with boots of speed? I suppose this at least means that no opponent is going to run away from you (not that this would be much use in game, I agree).

I feel more credit needs to be given to the Offensive/Defensive spins. Offensive spin grants an extra attack - mostly making up for the lack of ApR compared to a warrior, maximum damage from the weapons! - i.e. a super KI that lasts far longer, and +2 to hit and damage which makes up for the lack of specialisation. What does this mean? It means that when dealing with 95% of the foes in the game, the melee offensive abilities of the Blade beat those of a F/M. The other 5% will give the Blade problems due to the relatively poor THAC0, something the warrior classes do not suffer from, but then there's buffing/summoning which the blade can use to help deal with this minority of "thorn/ass interaction" enemies.

List of things where a Fighter/Mage beats a Blade: THAC0 AC Saving Throws ApR Hitpoints Spellslots Spell levels Equipment restrictions Stronghold (not really a power consideration, but still) Race restrictions

THAC0 - agreed.

AC - not really. Defensive spin combined with some decent equipment/chain mail whoops any AC a F/M can come up with, however the F/M can have a superior permanant AC. Once you get UAI - any AC a F/M can manage gets trumped by the Blade.

Saving Throws - true.

ApR - true - However the Blade can get 4 ApR using certain weapons, 5 with OS which has hit the cap anyway.

Hitpoints - I disagree. At the start of SoA, an 89,000XP F/M will have roughly (assuming 18 CON and max D10/D4) (6*((1D10+4)/2)+(6*((1D4+2)/2) = 42+18=60HP. In contrast, an 89,000XP Blade (assuming 16 CON and max D6) will have (8*(1D6+2)) = 64HP.

We can take this to the other extreme of 8 million XP giving 24/20 levels of F/M compared to 40 of Bard:

F/M: ((9*((1D10+4)/2))+(10*((1D4+2)/2))+(15*2)+(10*1)) = 63 (fighter class) + 30 (mage class) + 30 (fighter HP post level 9) + 10 (mage HP post level 10) = 133HP.

Blade: (10*(1D6+2))+(30*2) = 140HP.

So we have 133HP for a F/M, compared to 140HP for a Blade, and that's even with 18CON vs 16.

Spellslots: Agreed.

Spell levels: Agreed, although high level scrolls can still be cast by the Blade.

Equipment restrictions: Agreed, but becomes nullified through UAI.

Stronghold: Bah! But agreed.

Race: Agreed.

The F/M is certainly a superior overall class due to the excellent spell casting power, and I'm not trying to say that a Blade can compete power wise, but for the majority of the game the Blade can hold his own.

True, that is possible, but I prefer to gain EXP from things like that, instead of using up perfectly good spells that I'd rather use against enemies. (The flip side of that is that the Swashbuckler can't cast spells like Stoneskin and PfMW from memory, of course, but happily there are far fewer battles that would encourage a Swashbuckler's use of those spells than there are Traps in the game.)

This boils down to preference, since in the games I play XP is plentyful anyway, and I don't have a problem with casting stoneskin after a rest anyway due to its long duration, or simply gritting my teeth and taking a butt load of damage from a trap and then getting some healing. It might not be ideal, but the game doesn't neccessitate a thief.

As for Stealth, you know perfectly well that it's only HiS that will always fail if there's an enemy in your visual range--MS works just fine. If a Swashbuckler needs to vanish when there's a bad guy in sight, a simple Potion will do the trick, and when's the last time you were short of Invisibility Potions?

But once hidden in the shadows, the thief requires constant skill checks to ensure that he will remain hidden. This check is an auto fail once a hostile is visible, which will bring the thief out of the shadows regardless of skill. Sure, you can run away and hide again, or quaff a potion, but that was not the point I was making. All I was saying was that invisibility > HiS.

Capable? Yes. Since all the Blade kits have been soloed all through the game, then by definition they are capable characters. I am simply down on Bards because they are so almost completely eclipsed by the other classes, especially multiclasses. I don't mind a character not being really useful all the time, that'd be too much to expect from anyone. But when I notice that I never say to myself, "Boy, it's a good thing I've got Haer'Dalis in the party!", I tend to file that as a black mark.

One could argue that multiclasses will always be better than their single class counterparts (with the exception of the mage), as are powergaming dual class characters, which brings into question why play a straight class if there's always a better alternative. One must consider role playing and play style, as well as quicker level progression.

You may not have ever appreciated HD in the party, but with a permanant 60% physical resistance attainable (the highest permamant physical resistance of any other NPC or PC a player can come up with) I've sure been glad to have him from time to time. Again, this is preference.

...A Blade can kick some major ass when buffed to the gills. A Swashbuckler is kickass 24/7.

I guess that's fair enough. I prefer to play a character that requires more patience and nurturing but has excellent potential rather than one that has little depth but has power available on tap.

True. I would remove the second 'far,' though.

Yeah I had a feeling I was going a little too far with that one [img]smile.gif[/img]

Oh, I wasn't referring to Resistances, simply to not getting hit at all. The Swashbuckler owns the title of Lowest Permanent AC in the Game (the lowest AC the game will recognize, in fact), and with a few Stoneskin scrolls saved for emergencies, who cares about Physical Resists when there ain't nothing gonna touch you?

Rock bottom AC is fair enough, although it doesn't guarantee that you won't get hit. Many bosses have a THAC0 so low that your AC is irrelevant anyway. If the cap is -24 (iirc), and a boss such as Demogorgon has a -19 THAC0 or whatever it is with 4 ApR or something, he isn't going to run into problems hitting you anytime soon...I place far more value on a moderately high AC but with high physical resistances.

On a side note, a Blade can achieve a lower AC than a swashbuckler can. Sure it won't be permamant, but is nontheless manageable. If a swashbuckler can keep piling equipment on until he reaches the cap, that's as far as he's going. This may be considered cheesy (in fact I'm fairly sure it is), but a blade can use his DS (and even improved bard song ability) to actually bypass the AC cap...I need to investigate this more but I'm sure it's possible. Basically, it involves reaching the cap, but still having an abundance of items/abilities left to push the AC beyond the cap, once the cap has been reached.

[Riftmaker]

ARGH! I just did all this research and lost my post...grrrrr......

Anyway, your math is gimped, suffice it to say that the F/M actually ends up with 149 HP, and the Blade ends up with 134.

Second, constant HiS checks are not necesarry when sighting a hostile, you just have to make MS checks every round. HiS only auto-fails if you are in LoS of a hostile.

Third, monsters will always have at least 5% chance to hit you, regardless of what your AC is.

[Jim]

Originally posted by Riftmaker: ...Anyway, your math is gimped, suffice it to say that the F/M actually ends up with 149 HP, and the Blade ends up with 134.

You are omitting 6HP from the Blade because you haven't taken into account (I assume) the fact that rogues roll 10D6+CON bonuses for their hit dice before they receive only 2hp per round (with the exception of mages, all other classes roll 9Dx+CON). Rolling a max of 6 hp + 2 from CON bonus for the first 10 levels = 80 HP. That leaves 30 levels of 2HP = 60hp. 80+60=140HP. If you play on normal or easy difficulty, you get a "bonus" Dx of whatever class you are, so in the case of the Bard, you get a bonus +6hp at the start. Therefore on normal or easy difficulty the final HP of the Bard is 146HP. Try it and see .

As for a F/M, I just created one, set the XP to 8000000 and fully levelled up. The resulting HP was 133. Don't believe me? Again, try it and see. I assume from my earlier calculations that I was in the region of 1HP out for every couple of levels or so (since there is rounding applied with M/C characters). The end result has been the same however, since I assume a F/M gets a free 10hp+4hp at the start so the resulting 133HP turns out to be exactly how I calculated it. How did you arrive at 149? I wouldn't go as far as to say that my math is "gimped" .

Second, constant HiS checks are not necesarry when sighting a hostile, you just have to make MS checks every round. HiS only auto-fails if you are in LoS of a hostile.

I fully stand corrected on this matter. I have certainly been plagued with this problem in the past, but it must have been addressed in a patch because I've just tested it and you are indeed correct.

Third, monsters will always have at least 5% chance to hit you, regardless of what your AC is.

I never stated otherwise. I would never say that having an AC of X provides immunity from physical attacks because of the chance for enemies to roll a 20 on their hit roll. This is partly why I place more value on physical resistances.

[Edited for spelling]

[ 10-26-2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Jim ]

[Riftmaker]

I guess I don't entirely understand how they handled the HP in BG2, I'll have a look in my 2nd Edition PH when I get home, then I'll tell you if it's right or not.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Jim: Bard Song - agreed, that sucks. A certain ToB HLA nullifies this disadvantage though.

True, but by the time you can get the HLA, your Blade will be stronger fighting than singing, so the only way you can really make it be useful is through Mislead cheese. (Those who actually use Bards should feel free to differ with me on this.)

Running around real fast - I assume you mean via Offensive Spin combined with boots of speed? I suppose this at least means that no opponent is going to run away from you (not that this would be much use in game, I agree).

No, I actually consider speed to be quite a valid asset. For a Tank at least, being the first person seen by an enemy is a definite advantage, and of course running away can always be a big help when you're low on HP, or when you're ambushed by Vampires and you haven't got the Amulet yet.

I feel more credit needs to be given to the Offensive/Defensive spins. ... What does this mean? It means that when dealing with 95% of the foes in the game, the melee offensive abilities of the Blade beat those of a F/M.

Your comment about Offensive Spin's ApR is correct--under OS, a Blade will be only 1/2 an attack behind a F/M. But I consider such factors as THAC0 to be far more important than maximum damage with every hit, especially since the damage due to such things as high STR tends to render the damage from the weapon itself rather negligible. When you're hitting for 25 damage per hit, the difference between 1D4 and 1D10 seems rather inconsequential. Therefore, the Blade's got a long way to go before it can "beat those of a F/M."

AC - not really. Once you get UAI - any AC a F/M can manage gets trumped by the Blade.

Ummm--how? By wearing Plate and shooting himself in the foot without his spells?

ApR - true - However the Blade can get 4 ApR using certain weapons, 5 with OS which has hit the cap anyway.

What's the point of 4 ApR if your weapons don't do anything else and are incapable of hitting the very critters you most need to hit? A F/M can achieve a permanent ApR of 4.5 by dualing Kundane & Your Choice of Nasty Mainhand Weapon.

Hitpoints - I disagree. .... So we have 133HP for a F/M, compared to 140HP for a Blade, and that's even with 18CON vs 16.

Okay, point conceded.

This boils down to preference, since in the games I play XP is plentyful anyway,

Thank you, that brings up another difference: The EXP cap. A Bard will hit Level 39 about 1/4th of the way into ToB, leaving you with virtually no character growth for the rest of the game. A F/M (or any other Multiclass), however, can continue to grow until reaching Level 40 in both classes.

You may not have ever appreciated HD in the party, but with a permanant 60% physical resistance attainable (the highest permamant physical resistance of any other NPC or PC a player can come up with) I've sure been glad to have him from time to time. Again, this is preference.

Not sure if this is truly a valid point or not, since Haer'Dalis is so buggy anyway, but his Resistances are anything but consistent in regards to his recruitment level. I sure wish BaldurDash had something conclusive to say about him.....
But what is a valid point is that Haer'Dalis is not a PC Blade, and therefore his Resistances (and weapon specialization) cannot be counted as being part & parcel of the Blade.

I prefer to play a character that requires more patience and nurturing but has excellent potential rather than one that has little depth but has power available on tap.

Hm. I don't weigh characters by the amount of button-pushing I have to do (although I must admit that my all-Warrior party was my fastest breeze through the game ever), but I suppose this issue is just personal preference.

Many bosses have a THAC0 so low that your AC is irrelevant anyway. If the cap is -24 (iirc), and a boss such as Demogorgon has a -19 THAC0 or whatever it is with 4 ApR or something, he isn't going to run into problems hitting you anytime soon...I place far more value on a moderately high AC but with high physical resistances.

Yes, which is precisely why I mentioned those "Stoneskin scrolls saved for emergencies," such as Weimer bosses or Critical Strike. Besides, a Swashbuckler can achieve exactly the same physical resists that a Blade can, and as for the F/M vs. Blade comparison, it's better to go the AC route: High Resists are all well and good, but your spells will still get disrupted.

This may be considered cheesy (in fact I'm fairly sure it is), but a blade can use his DS (and even improved bard song ability) to actually bypass the AC cap...I need to investigate this more but I'm sure it's possible.

Interesting. Personally, I wouldn't call it cheesy, since the AC cap is only an engine limitation anyway.