This beggars belief - sex change for 12 Y.O.

[JrKASperov]

Originally Posted by Bungleau Ah, but there *is* an innate imbalance of power and control. As the parent of an 11-year-old daughter (not quite 13, but close), she does not have anywhere near the frame of reference that I do (at 42) for life and living. It is pathetically easy to manipulate a person of that age to get what you want, if you're so inclined.

It is pathetically easy to manipulate, but that does not mean there *will* be manipulation. Hence, no *innate* imbalance of power and control. Only the risk of one, and it is this risk we should protect against.

It is exactly this risk that Yorick discussed in his argument. Cotton candy might seem a far more innocent example, but the bottom line is still that we protect the child against a risk (rotting teeth at a later age).

I'm one of those people whose parents never really were there for me. I know how much I miss discipline and guidance in my life. I have made a lot of bad choices that I could have been protected from, and I wish I had. I have experienced fully that puberty and youth makes for terrible decision making, even if I was fully supporting it with all sorts of thought out arguments, even if I was convinced that was the best for me. I still cannot say that I have the best for me in mind at all times.

That said, I view this case in the same way: the child has no full recognition of what's going on, and there still may be hope this viewpoint of not feeling in the right body goes away somehow. Even if we accept there is nothing inherently wrong about sex-change (not that I agree with that) we still have to accept the enormous risks involved. If who knows what might happen, is it such a bad decision to choose to see if there is a non-physical solution? I for one would find it a sad day indeed if that were the general opinion.

[Bungleau]

I disagree that the imbalance is not innate, but you and I are on the same page.

The very nature of the relationship means that there is an imbalance. The way that imbalance shows up is something else, undoubtedly, and may even be in a positive manner. But I offer that there is likely no way that a 12-year-old and a 30-year-old can communicate as equals, assuming that both are developmentally normal.

The risk is in the imbalance being abused. That's part of what society legislates against. My wife is a social worker, and 'round these parts, she is legally obligated to report any suspected child abuse. If a child says they're being beat, she *has* to report it. Me, I can look at the child, ask more questions, and decide if I think it ought to be reported. Not her.

Parents are obligated to protect their children until they can survive themselves. At 12, I find it hard to believe that the typical child has the perspective, viewpoint, and experience to make the call about undergoing (or preparing to undergo) a sex change.

And to Illumina's point, a good friend of mine is indeed transgender. His change took place when he was in his early thirties.... nearly three times the age of this girl.

One of the things that happens, I believe, and to support JRKasperov's point, is that as you grow older, you look back at things that you've done and see how life would be different if you'd done them differently. There are things that I really wish I hadn't done when I was growing up (and as I continue to grow up ), but at the same time, I wouldn't have the same perspective and life now if I *hadn't* done those things.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally Posted by Bungleau And to Illumina's point, a good friend of mine is indeed transgender. His change took place when he was in his early thirties.... nearly three times the age of this girl.

I don't want the question to be misunderstood- I was wondering what page everyone else was on to gain some insight.

[Bungleau]

No worries, Illumina. I guess I should have broken that out after all.

I was just trying to respond separately that I had some close-hand experience with a transgendered friend, and I was *NOT* trying to imply that because of that, I am somehow more knowledgeable or authoritative about it.

I have not had a heart-to-heart with my friend about his choice, largely because it's his choice, and in spite of (or perhaps because of) our years of friendship, it's not my place to pry into what he's decided, gone through, or experienced. And it's not relevant, either. He's my friend, no matter what physical gender he has now or had then. End of story.

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally Posted by Yorick How is this any more ridiculous? You're being quite selective in your refusal to accept as much information as possible. 1. I can see you've never divorced a vindictive woman... there are way more crazy stories about what woman have done to get back at a father. 2. People use children as pawns in a divorce. It's an awful fact. 3. The father's opinions co-align with the majority of people interested in the case, and is the more "balanced" view. His motivations are clear and empathisable: concern for daughters health, accepting her mental issues, wanting her to grow up naturally. 4. The mother's behaviour is extremely unusual (hence the newsworthiness of the actual article.. if it wasn't weird we wouldn't have heard about it) which is why we must look deeper for motivations. The motivation of a man-hating feminazi teaching her child self-loathing is a simple and believable situation. 5. As a child, the daughter is obviously still being influenced by parents. Clearly she is most influenced by the same-sex parent in this case. Tom-boys, penis-envy and girls wanting to be boys are as old and natural as the human race. But if she waited until she birthed a child in the womb she wants removed, she may realise how the situation reverses, and why men attempt to build monuments and "children" in whatever compensatory fashion they can. 6. The initial article was sensationalistic, and didn't clearly state that the surgery must wait until she's 18.

It's less ridiculous because, in a hypothetical situation, it's much more likely that a mother would be trying to be supportive of her daughter's stated transgender feelings, than deliberately inserting transgender thoughts and then fostering them to get back at her husband, to the point that her daughter actually takes hormone therapy and eventually has surgery. The latter is not impossible, and in light of some of the things Bungleau stated in his later post, possibly the case for this family, but still much less likely. And, even with these alleged facts, we do not know all the facts in this case and everyone's stated and unstated intentions, biases, and alignments, so I think it's reasonable to give people the benefit of the doubt. I am using the same information that you are, but I am not willing to take it all at face value because I have plenty of experience of people putting the best spin on their own position while negatively spinning a rival's position in situations like these.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar The thing with the cotton candy.

The "cotton candy" was not a straw man, but an example of the principle I was defending.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Aelia Jusa It's less ridiculous because, in a hypothetical situation, it's much more likely that a mother would be trying to be supportive of her daughter's stated transgender feelings, than deliberately inserting transgender thoughts and then fostering them to get back at her husband, to the point that her daughter actually takes hormone therapy and eventually has surgery. The latter is not impossible, and in light of some of the things Bungleau stated in his later post, possibly the case for this family, but still much less likely. And, even with these alleged facts, we do not know all the facts in this case and everyone's stated and unstated intentions, biases, and alignments, so I think it's reasonable to give people the benefit of the doubt. I am using the same information that you are, but I am not willing to take it all at face value because I have plenty of experience of people putting the best spin on their own position while negatively spinning a rival's position in situations like these.

This article presents more facts than just the original. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23754742-2,00.html Consequently things DO start to make more sense.

Until you debate the facts presented instead of ignoring half of the story, we have nothing more to discuss.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar The thing with the cotton candy. Edit- And I might as well ask, because I've been wondering... Does anyone here actually know, in person, any number of transpeople?

Yes I do actually.

[Larry_OHF]

Originally Posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar Larry- I would actually love to see that case, if it's not too much trouble.

My wife tells me (after I tore the house apart searching for it) that I sold my manual back to the school for $27.50. Sorry. I tried doing a search online for which manual I used in that class but cannot get the website to tell me which manual was used in that class that semester. Maybe I'll call my professor.

By the way, while doing some searches on medical and mental-related websites, I found more than one instance that warns of problems not going away for some people who had sex changes, they just developed different types of problems later on that were just as heavy of a burdon.

To bring back one of Yorick's points: it is factual and proved from child psychology that children cannot understand nor make life-long consequencial decisions on their own. A preteen has barely grown out of the mentality of the world revolving around him or her and their search for independency has barely begun...but many mistakes will be made along the way...some of which are irreversable (unfortunately).

[Yorick]

A sobering thought indeed Larry.