Palestenians in the Church of the Nativity...

[Ryanamur]

Well, I said it before and I'll say it again.

The situation in the Middle East is a mess caused by generation of fighting between two races. In recent years, the onus of responsability for the fighting has been put on the Palestinians -even though both parties are equally responsible.

The situation has been inflammed by over 50 years of unconditional support to Israel by most Western countries and the UN. This support is, of course, a direct product of the lack of support for Jews prior to WWII.

Today, it's even worst because both people (Jews and Palestinian) are ruled by lunatics (respectivelly Sharon and Arafat) who've hatted each others guts for close to 1/2 a century.

They've taken a national issue to a personnal level and that's not good for the rest of the world. They are totally oblivious to the carnage their close-minded attitude has created.

Now, to the issue at hand, the Church of the Nativity. This Church is a symbol of peace and happiness around the world. Arabs, Jews and Christians know it's value and recognize it's impact on the world.

It's a Church, it is protected under the Geneva convention. If the International community brough Milosevic to trial for crimes against humanity, they sure should bring Sharon in for the same thing should one of Israel soldier fired even one bullet on the church!

[khazadman]

I don't see there is any diffrence from a palestinian terrorist bombing himself up and a israel soldier shooting bombs at a refugee camp or killing pregnant woman because they don't stop at a roadblock.

jorath,the israelis have a problem with little things like palestinians bringing in car bombs.the road blocks are to find these car bombs.and if you were to run one that automatically makes you suspicious.and i tell you what,if i was faced with the choice of killing a car full of my enemies or seeing more of my people killed by another car bomb,i would gladly destroy that car and everyone in it.the same goes for for these terrorist training camps euphamistically called refugee camps.

[Thoran]

Do you know where the briefing was published? While the Israeli's have a formidable military, an all-out conflict in the region would most certainly not be so predetermined in outcome. Saudi Arabia very nearly borders on Israeli territory (15 miles maybe?), and they would be hard pressed to stay neutral in such a conflict (and not have a civil war on their hands). You also have Iraq well within striking distance.

The most likely scenario to that level of Israeli agression would be a broad reprisal from the entire region... and Saudi Arabia alone would be more than a match for the Israeli's (The Saudi Military budget is somewhere around 250% that of Israel)

Luckily even the Hard liners in Israel are not suggesting such a solution... and I think the Palestinians would find that peaceful methods would be much more likely to achieve their goals with the Israeli's than these attacks. They should start dropping books of the life of Ghandi over Arab territories... the Arabs just don't seem to get the idea that terrorism is just not going to get what they want, but civil disobediance has proven to be a powerful tool for change.

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by khazadman: jorath,the israelis have a problem with little things like palestinians bringing in car bombs.the road blocks are to find these car bombs.and if you were to run one that automatically makes you suspicious.and i tell you what,if i was faced with the choice of killing a car full of my enemies or seeing more of my people killed by another car bomb,i would gladly destroy that car and everyone in it.the same goes for for these terrorist training camps euphamistically called refugee camps.

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The Palestinians have a little problem with being confined to refugee camps and being thrown out of their houses to make place for the Jews. They also have a problem with the Jewish government who just keeps persecuting them. They tried to get more room, but then they were crushed by the Jews. The only solution they found was to bring in car bombs.

It's a Catch-22, the Palestinians hate the Jews because the Jews hate them. The Jews hate the Palestinians because the Palestinians hate them...
Which came first, the egg or the chicken?!?!

[ 04-05-2002, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Ryanamur ]

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Thoran: Do you know where the briefing was published? While the Israeli's have a formidable military, an all-out conflict in the region would most certainly not be so predetermined in outcome. Saudi Arabia very nearly borders on Israeli territory (15 miles maybe?), and they would be hard pressed to stay neutral in such a conflict (and not have a civil war on their hands). You also have Iraq well within striking distance. The most likely scenario to that level of Israeli agression would be a broad reprisal from the entire region... and Saudi Arabia alone would be more than a match for the Israeli's (The Saudi Military budget is somewhere around 250% that of Israel) Luckily even the Hard liners in Israel are not suggesting such a solution... and I think the Palestinians would find that peaceful methods would be much more likely to achieve their goals with the Israeli's than these attacks. They should start dropping books of the life of Ghandi over Arab territories... the Arabs just don't seem to get the idea that terrorism is just not going to get what they want, but civil disobediance has proven to be a powerful tool for change.

The Isrealis aren't afraid of the Saudis. The Saudi Army is not that great. Sure, they may spend a lot on weapons, but they lack the will to fight. They would rather hire some one else to do their fighting for them. I was there in 1991. They are rather ragtag and I have no doubt that the Isreali army would have little trouble handling them. Or for that matter Jordon, Syria, Egpyt, and Iraq.

Those countries have little will to fight as well, while the Isreali's have everything to fight for. Besides that, if It looks like Isreal is going o lose, then they will nuke all of their enemies. Then who wins... umm... does NO ONE seem like a good guess.

Originally posted by Ryanamur: Today, it's even worst because both people (Jews and Palestinian) are ruled by lunatics (respectivelly Sharon and Arafat) who've hatted each others guts for close to 1/2 a century.

In this case, I have to agree with you, Sharon isn't doing much to help the situation. I do think that this time, it is time for the elders to step aside and allow the "kids" try to iron things out, since the older people have the hate too deeply ingrained.

[quote]Originally posted by Sir Taliesin:

The Isrealis aren't afraid of the Saudis. The Saudi Army is not that great. Sure, they may spend a lot on weapons, but they lack the will to fight. They would rather hire some one else to do their fighting for them. I was there in 1991. They are rather ragtag and I have no doubt that the Isreali army would have little trouble handling them. Or for that matter Jordon, Syria, Egpyt, and Iraq. .

Amen! According to the best estimates made available for the public, Israel would wind hands down even if all those countries moved on them at once...without the USA or any other outside force stepping in to help out. Make no mistake, above all the Israelis are without a doubt the finset fighting force in the world, in men, morale and equipment. Man for man, tank for tank, thay can take anyone on....this from a rabid believer in the armed forces of the USA.

[Thoran]

Back in '91 everyone said that WE didn't have the will to fight... and compared to the US military EVERYONE in that region looks Rag-tag.

I'm the type of person who looks at the data... not at subjectives. Based on the data Israel would not fare well in a regional conflict without significant assistance from outside. Sheer numbers would overwhelmingly define the outcome.

The radical fundamentalists have been trying to unite the Arab world against Israel, and the more arbitrary and one-sided the actions of Israel... the more that is likely. In a conflict involving the whole region (incl. Saudi and Iraq), Israel would not last long. The use of Nukes would no doubt be a last resort... so it's unlikely they'd be of any tactical benefit.

Violence is the the enemy of Israel... both against and by them. They're the State, they can NOT utilize "eye for an eye" tactics against terrorists, in doing so they're playing right into the hands of the radicals. No matter what the motives, the World will see tanks against people... and Israel can't win the ensuing "court of public opinion" battle. Once that battle is lost they lose the support base that has kept the Arabs at bay for 50 years, because without the direct and indirect support of the West, Israel would have been gone a LONG time ago.

Here is a strategic assessment of Israel/Arab forces... sadly it only touches on the potential impact of Iraq and Saudi Arabia... but the fundamental confrontation of Israel and Bordering countries is addressed in detail.

http://www.csis.org/mideast/reports/mbmeVIAI122798.pdf

Essentially Israel against the border nations would be difficult for the Israeli's but not unmanageable. Israel against the Regional powers would be a disaster for the Israeli's.

[ 04-05-2002, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Blade]

One point in this that no one is making is that if the palistinians took refuge in one of there churches the isrials wouldn't have waited at all to storm in and make them prizinors the only reason why it slowed it down was it was in a one of there own churchs that they took refuge in.

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Thoran: Back in '91 everyone said that WE didn't have the will to fight... and compared to the US military EVERYONE in that region looks Rag-tag. I'm the type of person who looks at the data... not at subjectives. Based on the data Israel would not fare well in a regional conflict without significant assistance from outside. Sheer numbers would overwhelmingly define the outcome. The radical fundamentalists have been trying to unite the Arab world against Israel, and the more arbitrary and one-sided the actions of Israel... the more that is likely. In a conflict involving the whole region (incl. Saudi and Iraq), Israel would not last long. The use of Nukes would no doubt be a last resort... so it's unlikely they'd be of any tactical benefit. Violence is the the enemy of Israel... both against and by them. They're the State, they can NOT utilize "eye for an eye" tactics against terrorists, in doing so they're playing right into the hands of the radicals. No matter what the motives, the World will see tanks against people... and Israel can't win the ensuing "court of public opinion" battle. Once that battle is lost they lose the support base that has kept the Arabs at bay for 50 years, because without the direct and indirect support of the West, Israel would have been gone a LONG time ago. Here is a strategic assessment of Israel/Arab forces... sadly it only touches on the potential impact of Iraq and Saudi Arabia... but the fundamental confrontation of Israel and Bordering countries is addressed in detail. http://www.csis.org/mideast/reports/mbmeVIAI122798.pdf Essentially Israel against the border nations would be difficult for the Israeli's but not unmanageable. Israel against the Regional powers would be a disaster for the Israeli's.

During the '90, my unit participated in several exercises with the Saudi, Egyptian, and Jordonain Armies, as well as some Israeli units. The Israeli Army was by far the better trained military.

Most of arab nations do not allow their troops to even fire their weapons except during basic training. I have a Jordonain friend who was in the reserve there and he only got to fire 10 rounds of ammunition during his basic training and never even carried a firearm afterwards. He was required to perform 6 months of duty and then that was it.

In Israel the Reserve troops are required to perform One month of duty per year for their entire time in the reserves, which if I'm not mistaken is from the period of 18 until 50 or 55 years of age. During that time they are performing real military duties, not exercises. Carrying live ammunition and so forth. They are highly trained. Their officers go through training that is some of the toughest in the world. Possibly equivalent to the Q-course that US Special Forces (Green Berets) go through. Their equipment is top notch as well. They manufacture most of it themselves, and so aren't dependent on another country to supply them arms. With the exception of their planes. Most of those are pruchased from the US or France. However they also have the capablity to produce their home grown designs as well. Several years ago Washington forced them to not manufacture their on fighter, because of the imbalance that it would create in the Mid east.

As a last note, they also have 3 diseal powered submarines that carry nuclear tipped missiles.

Make no mistake, in the Mideast, they are the most formiable fighting force there. One last thing. All the Arab state cannot commit their full forces against Israel, because they also have to watch their backsides from each other, as well as any coup attempst that might take place. Therefore their best units would stay at home, to defend the monarchs and dictators that are in place. Sorry there may be some mistakes in this. I'm being rushed by my better half. We have WEEBALL game in 45 minutes. BYE!

[ 04-06-2002, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Sir Taliesin ]