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Old 04-03-2002, 09:00 PM   #1
Thoran
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Had an interesting discussion with a friend about this issue... so I was thinking that this site could add some international viewpoints to the debate.

He is insulted and feels that the Palestinians have taken the site hostage... I don't know about the international media but American media seems to feel likewise based on the reports they're publishing.

I feel that no matter what motives are in play, it's a longstanding tradition that Catholic/Christian churches provide shelter for ANYONE escaping persecution. Right or wrong, the palestinians were fleeing for thier lives and IMO even the Sacred nature of the Church of the Nativity does not exempt it from this duty. I see it as Christianity taking a stand against violence in general... irrespective of the persuations of the antagonists.

Who's right?

[ 04-03-2002, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]
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Old 04-04-2002, 09:03 AM   #2
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Personally I view the Palistinians as terrorists
and believe that they are just being cowardly and hiding in the church to save their skins...which is what sanctuary is all about I suppose.
 
Old 04-04-2002, 01:41 PM   #3
Azred
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I'm not sure why the Palestinians chose to seek refuge in a Christian church, except for the fact that churches have long been places of refuge. I think it is a little hypocritical of them to do so, since they apparently don't like anything to do with the West. On the other hand, it is brilliant to hide there, because that forces the Israelis to fire on/storm into the church (which they apparently have done now) and thus damage their credibility with the West.
Personally, I think both sides should be embarrassed for reacting only with violence; apparently that is the only idea of which they are capable of conceiving. Unfortunately, it looks as if the only solution is for one side to completely wipe the other one out, because no one is listening to reason.
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Old 04-04-2002, 02:32 PM   #4
Smeagol II
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Magik is there anyone that you don't consider to be a terrorist? I think your right Azred it's pretty embarrasing all round
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Old 04-04-2002, 03:08 PM   #5
khazadman
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from watching the news you'd think that the palestinians came across the church by sheer luck.the terrorists have been living in the vicinity of the church of the nativity for weeks expressly for the shelter it provides from the israelis.so these cowards are hiding behind priests and nuns now for gods sake.
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Old 04-04-2002, 04:04 PM   #6
Jorath Calar
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I don't see there is any diffrence from a palestinian terrorist bombing himself up and a israel soldier shooting bombs at a refugee camp or killing pregnant woman because they don't stop at a roadblock.

By the way how desparete do you think people must be to decide to bomb themselves up?

If Israel had any notion for peace they would pull their army out and give the Palestinian their land back which they only have claim for through the bible. So who are more fanatics?

I hope I didn't offend anyone but I have no sympathy for Israel, they are doing exactly the same as the nazis did to the jews.
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Old 04-04-2002, 04:23 PM   #7
Thoran
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Arab "ancestral" claim to the Holy Land dates from about 600 AD. They ruled there until the Turks took over in the 1500's (except for a few incursionis by Crusaders)

The Jews of course had the land LONG before there were any Arabs in it. It appears that most radical Islamists don't seem to claim the land based on "ancestral right", but rather based on a religous right of ownership (the religous equivelant of Eminant Domain [img]smile.gif[/img] ). Conveniant for them that God decided that THEY deserved to own the land that belonged to Jews for at least 1500 year before they arrived, NO?

Of course the Jews will tell you that God said no such thing, after all... God promised THEM the Holy Land a LONG time ago right?

Seems that God can't seem to make up his mind.

If you gave the land back to the people who have the most RECENT possession... that would be Turkey, but they don't seem to have much interest in it.

Arabs have neither a valid "recent history" nor a valid "ancestral" claim to that land. IMO the only argument they can make is a "squatters rights" one.

[ 04-04-2002, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]
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Old 04-05-2002, 11:25 AM   #8
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Smeagol II:
Magik is there anyone that you don't consider to be a terrorist? I think your right Azred it's pretty embarrasing all round
Actually yes, I don't consider any one who doesn't indiscriminantly target women, children and non-combatant men terrorists. If you take pains to ensure your "victims"/targets are military or governmental then you are not a terrorist....If you honor your word on peace treaties and seriously work toward an equitable peace without breaking cease fire agreements by terror bombing civilians then you can be considered freedom fighters. If you seriously cannot see the difference then I guess I might as well quit trying to explain it to you.
 
Old 04-05-2002, 11:27 AM   #9
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by khazadman:
from watching the news you'd think that the palestinians came across the church by sheer luck.the terrorists have been living in the vicinity of the church of the nativity for weeks expressly for the shelter it provides from the israelis.so these cowards are hiding behind priests and nuns now for gods sake.
But of course, what else would you expect? Terrorists don't care about anything but kkilling their enemys no matter what they have to do, how they have to do it, or who gets hurt in the process. To a terrorist, the end does justify the means.
 
Old 04-05-2002, 11:38 AM   #10
MagiK
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Originally posted by Jorath Calar:
I don't see there is any diffrence from a palestinian terrorist bombing himself up and a israel soldier shooting bombs at a refugee camp or killing pregnant woman because they don't stop at a roadblock.

By the way how desparete do you think people must be to decide to bomb themselves up?

If Israel had any notion for peace they would pull their army out and give the Palestinian their land back which they only have claim for through the bible. So who are more fanatics?

I hope I didn't offend anyone but I have no sympathy for Israel, they are doing exactly the same as the nazis did to the jews.
Actually there are some differences let me enumerate a bit....

First off, you don't shoot bombs.
Secondly if you are approaching a check point with openly armed guards who give you orders in a language you understand and you act in a manner consistent with suicide bombers of your race, you can expect to be shot, pregnant or not since if you ARE a suicide bomber you will kill and injure more people than just yourself and your unborn child.
Thridly you are buying the palistinian propaganda by accepting at face values of the Jews acting like barbarians and terrorists. From my direct observations in the past and from knowing a bit about their tactics, I know that the Jews actually put great effort into not hurting people when they do not have to.

Now a terrorist who sneaks a bomb into a crowded bus and blows it up doesnt care at all who get s hurt.

4th The israelis should take and keep ground during these reprisals, it is with this ground that they can leverage a peace. In the last 20 years it has been the Palistinians who have scuttled the peace talks by commiting attacks such as suicide bombings while the talks were going on. Arafat has never wanted peace, he just wants to appear to desire it to keep support for him from the outside world.

5th if the Israelis really wanted to hurt palistinians indiscrininantly they could just wipe them out in one or two short engagements and kill them all. Syria, Jordan, Egypt and lebanon do not have the ability to win a confrontation with Israel if they go head to head. I commented on a briefing I read where even in the worst case scenario Israel kicks ass and takes names, but has its economy wrecked.

It is in Israels best interest to have peace but they will win any "war" that gets started.

Now Im not saying that the Jews havent on occasion crossed the line, but all in all, I think historicly they have been fairly reasonable about the matters at hand.

Well I hope you see my point.
 
 


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