Platoon defies orders in Iraq

[Night Stalker]

A deadlined vehicle is a Non-Mission Capable. It has serious maintanece issues. Usually it means it is less than 60% operational or has a single "deadlining" fault (like say .... a missing propeller on a single prop plane [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). A deadlined vehicle cannot be used, except when annotated in writing by the Company Commander that owns it on the vehicle maintanence log.

So, whether the vehicle was DLd or not, the Commander still issued an order, and soldiers must follow lawful orders or face consequences.

(Note that there is no qualification for silly, dangerous, or what not - LAWFUL, as defined by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the operation Rules of Engagement and Rules of Interation, and other guide lines set forth by the Theatre Commander and Host Nation Governing Authorities.)

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: Well, there is no such thing in the Army as "Shooters" and "NonShooters" anymore, as there is no such thing as a "Front Line" in Iraq.

Touche!
I'AM A SHOOTER, I train daily and or train others on a daily basis to: SHOOT, MOVE, and COMMUNICATE. I do not, and will NOT, allow a Clerk, Mechanic, or Trans Pogue, TO FALL INTO the catagory of HUNTER/KILLER/SHOOTER/COMBATANT! They, as their training prescribes, ARE REAR ECHELON NON-COMBATANT NON-SHOOTERS! I'm sorry, but that is the way it is! They qualify with weapons for self defense,and mission accomplishment, but LACK the training of taking the fight to the trenches! That is why they are ESCORTED in and out of the zone by SHOOTERS!
I have trained for 23 years, I have put training ammunition on target for 23 years. I have had the opportunity to close with and destroy the enemies of my country TWICE. I have only sent SERVICE ammunition down range TWICE. The people this article speak of, reek with the sentiment of "IT's TOO HARD"! Do not confuse the mentality of a shooter with that of a non-shooter!
Even thou my current post has me training the NG, they as I, see the difference between a Tank Company, and that of HHC! Or more importantly, that of the FSB! They, as with others, cannot see past the end of the muzzle for objective security, or mission accomplishment!
I have nothing against them, mind you, but they lack the intestinal fortitude to accomplish the mission! For without them,?????

[Timber Loftis]

Um... Felix, I do doubt the "intestinal fortitude" bit. Not everyone joins the Guard or the "rear echelon" because they lack the will to fight. Sometimes it's their best option, based on pay, oportunity, post-milary career plans, or skill.

Back to the topic at hand. Yes, if the soldier refused orders that were legal, they broke the rules and will suffer Court Martial. However, *if* it turns out they were right about the equipment, and *if* it was not their own fault, I do applaud their willingness to breach orders and suffer a Court Martial to bring this issue to light. *If*, of course.

[aleph_null1]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Um... Felix, I do doubt the "intestinal fortitude" bit. Not everyone joins the Guard or the "rear echelon" because they lack the will to fight. Sometimes it's their best option, based on pay, oportunity, post-milary career plans, or skill.

Right, so the Marine on the beach regards all other service personnel as cowardly pussies... and the SEAL regards the Marine as one I'd call this something akin to institutional and unit pride, nothing more or less.

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally posted by aleph_null1: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Um... Felix, I do doubt the "intestinal fortitude" bit. Not everyone joins the Guard or the "rear echelon" because they lack the will to fight. Sometimes it's their best option, based on pay, oportunity, post-milary career plans, or skill.

Right, so the Marine on the beach regards all other service personnel as cowardly pussies... and the SEAL regards the Marine as one I'd call this something akin to institutional and unit pride, nothing more or less. [/QUOTE]Ahmen Brother!

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by aleph_null1: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Um... Felix, I do doubt the "intestinal fortitude" bit. Not everyone joins the Guard or the "rear echelon" because they lack the will to fight. Sometimes it's their best option, based on pay, oportunity, post-milary career plans, or skill.

Right, so the Marine on the beach regards all other service personnel as cowardly pussies... and the SEAL regards the Marine as one I'd call this something akin to institutional and unit pride, nothing more or less. [/QUOTE]AND?!?!

Don't you know not to interupt a good soldier's trash talk unless you are willing to buy a few rounds? I'll take a Bass Ale, thanks! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Make sure you get what the good Tanker is having too .....

[img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

[ 10-19-2004, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: Night Stalker ]

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: quote: Originally posted by Night Stalker: Well, there is no such thing in the Army as "Shooters" and "NonShooters" anymore, as there is no such thing as a "Front Line" in Iraq.

Touche!
I'AM A SHOOTER, I train daily and or train others on a daily basis to: SHOOT, MOVE, and COMMUNICATE. I do not, and will NOT, allow a Clerk, Mechanic, or Trans Pogue, TO FALL INTO the catagory of HUNTER/KILLER/SHOOTER/COMBATANT! They, as their training prescribes, ARE REAR ECHELON NON-COMBATANT NON-SHOOTERS! I'm sorry, but that is the way it is! They qualify with weapons for self defense,and mission accomplishment, but LACK the training of taking the fight to the trenches! That is why they are ESCORTED in and out of the zone by SHOOTERS!
I have trained for 23 years, I have put training ammunition on target for 23 years. I have had the opportunity to close with and destroy the enemies of my country TWICE. I have only sent SERVICE ammunition down range TWICE. The people this article speak of, reek with the sentiment of "IT's TOO HARD"! Do not confuse the mentality of a shooter with that of a non-shooter!
Even thou my current post has me training the NG, they as I, see the difference between a Tank Company, and that of HHC! Or more importantly, that of the FSB! They, as with others, cannot see past the end of the muzzle for objective security, or mission accomplishment!
I have nothing against them, mind you, but they lack the intestinal fortitude to accomplish the mission! For without them,????? [/QUOTE]AT EASE, Trooper!

I am a COMMUNICATOR, my troops do everything imaginable to shape the battlefield, facilitate the fight, and make sure you CAN communicate while shootin an scootin! I won't disagree with you on the way CS and CSS troops trained in the past, but the old doctrine of the linear battlefield does not apply anymore. (Check out the CALL site on AKO.) Massive training efforts are under way to bring the previously REMFs up to speed with the killers because the killers are not always available to escort. Yet the LOGPACs still need to through .... or the only rounds your crews'll send down range are HOOAH rounds!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] What I'm saying is the Logies are seeing as much action as the Squishies and Bucket Heads!

Not that we really want too, that's your job damnit! [img]tongue.gif[/img] We have barely enough time to keep proficient at our jobs let alone become adequit at yours! I'd very much love to have a Bradley PLT on permanent escort detail for my troops, but that ain't gonna happen.

Timber, my impression is the same as Felix's in this situation. I've dealt with NG soldiers alot more that he has. While good troops, some of them think they are Union workers! Rights this .... Deserve that ..... SAFETY! SAFETY HAZARD! When's my break time? Blah, blah.

While the facts will come out in the Article 32 procedings, I think at the end of the day, they were just unwilling to simply do their JOB.

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: quote: Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: quote: Originally posted by Night Stalker: Well, there is no such thing in the Army as "Shooters" and "NonShooters" anymore, as there is no such thing as a "Front Line" in Iraq.

Touche!
I'AM A SHOOTER, I train daily and or train others on a daily basis to: SHOOT, MOVE, and COMMUNICATE. I do not, and will NOT, allow a Clerk, Mechanic, or Trans Pogue, TO FALL INTO the catagory of HUNTER/KILLER/SHOOTER/COMBATANT! They, as their training prescribes, ARE REAR ECHELON NON-COMBATANT NON-SHOOTERS! I'm sorry, but that is the way it is! They qualify with weapons for self defense,and mission accomplishment, but LACK the training of taking the fight to the trenches! That is why they are ESCORTED in and out of the zone by SHOOTERS!
I have trained for 23 years, I have put training ammunition on target for 23 years. I have had the opportunity to close with and destroy the enemies of my country TWICE. I have only sent SERVICE ammunition down range TWICE. The people this article speak of, reek with the sentiment of "IT's TOO HARD"! Do not confuse the mentality of a shooter with that of a non-shooter!
Even thou my current post has me training the NG, they as I, see the difference between a Tank Company, and that of HHC! Or more importantly, that of the FSB! They, as with others, cannot see past the end of the muzzle for objective security, or mission accomplishment!
I have nothing against them, mind you, but they lack the intestinal fortitude to accomplish the mission! For without them,????? [/QUOTE]AT EASE, Trooper!

I am a COMMUNICATOR, my troops do everything imaginable to shape the battlefield, facilitate the fight, and make sure you CAN communicate while shootin an scootin! I won't disagree with you on the way CS and CSS troops trained in the past, but the old doctrine of the linear battlefield does not apply anymore. (Check out the CALL site on AKO.) Massive training efforts are under way to bring the previously REMFs up to speed with the killers because the killers are not always available to escort. Yet the LOGPACs still need to through .... or the only rounds your crews'll send down range are HOOAH rounds!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] What I'm saying is the Logies are seeing as much action as the Squishies and Bucket Heads!

Not that we really want too, that's your job damnit! [img]tongue.gif[/img] We have barely enough time to keep proficient at our jobs let alone become adequit at yours! I'd very much love to have a Bradley PLT on permanent escort detail for my troops, but that ain't gonna happen.

Timber, my impression is the same as Felix's in this situation. I've dealt with NG soldiers alot more that he has. While good troops, some of them think they are Union workers! Rights this .... Deserve that ..... SAFETY! SAFETY HAZARD! When's my break time? Blah, blah.

While the facts will come out in the Article 32 procedings, I think at the end of the day, they were just unwilling to simply do their JOB. [/QUOTE] I take your post with brotherly honor! But as a SIGO, how in the world can you or can you not get me ammo? HOOAH rounds are reserved for the reserves, so don't bring me any! [img]smile.gif[/img] PERIOD!
However, I must ask. Why, would you want a go-kart platoon to escort you? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Morgan_Corbesant]

I have a question....since when is a 17 man/woman group considered a "Platoon"? If that platoon was only 17 strong, then I would think they were combat ineffective...regardless of the equipments condition.

Oh, and NG soldiers aren't "second-hand". I served for 4 years as an Infantryman in the Marine Corps. I'm an eight time expert on the rifle range and have shot on rifle compititions in Hawaii. September 11th happened and I went into the guard. There is alot of experience in the NG units. People from all different branches and jobs join into the guard when they EAS (End of Active Service). It allows us to proudly serve our country and maintain lives outside of that as well. I've shot at people, I've been shot at. Just because I'm a soldier in the NG now doesn't mean I have no "Intestinal Fortitude". I'm off to the desert again next year, and I'm proud to do it.

[ 10-19-2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Morgan_Corbesant ]

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally posted by Morgan_Corbesant: I have a question....since when is a 17 man/woman group considered a "Platoon"? If that platoon was only 17 strong, then I would think they were combat ineffective...regardless of the equipments condition.

It was a small transition a few years back. It was called transformation 1986. When we went to do more with less. FYI, a tank platoon is 16 men strong @ 100%, with a 'normal' OR of 13 men, and 94% equipment. That's why we transition into 'motorized with ease, we are already set as four man crews.

Oh, and NG soldiers aren't "second-hand". I served for 4 years as an Infantryman in the Marine Corps. I'm an eight time expert on the rifle range and have shot on rifle compititions in Hawaii. September 11th happened and I went into the guard. There is alot of experience in the NG units. People from all different branches and jobs join into the guard when they EAS (End of Active Service). It allows us to proudly serve our country and maintain lives outside of that as well. I've shot at people, I've been shot at. Just because I'm a soldier in the NG now doesn't mean I have no "Intestinal Fortitude". I'm off to the desert again next year, and I'm proud to do it.

I did not say, they were second hand. I said I have worked with them for over a year as their RTD, OC/T, and ending as their UA. I said there mentality is not the same as mine, nor do they have the same sense of urgency!

OT, stop the snow, I still have to make it back to La Grande next month!