AD&D Question: Deities vs ArchDevils vs Demon Princes

Memnoch · 01-05-2002, 01:33 AM

I was surprised at how many of us actually play or have played AD&D. [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] So this is a question for hardcore (and not so hardcore) PnP AD&Ders out there (preferably those who have DM'd as well.

Do you think it would be possible for some of the more powerful Dukes of Hell (Asmodeus, Baalzebul, etc) or Demon Princes (Demogorgon, Orcus etc) to be more powerful or at least on par with some of the lesser/intermediate Faerunian deities?

I'm particularly interested in where you all think Lolth would sit in terms of power, seeing as she's an intermediate goddess in the Faerunian pantheon but as a demoness traditionally is ranked below Demogorgon, Orcus and Graz'zt.

Another example is Tiamat, who is ruler of the first plane of Hell, but is also classified as a lesser goddess in the FRCS. She also happens to be a Greater Power in Krynn.

The way I see it, this is how the totem pole would be:

SUPREME POWERS (eg. Ao, Highgod, Chaos)
GREATER POWERS (eg. Tyr, Mystra, Cyric, Bane, Shar, Horus-Re, Corellon Larethian) as well as Asmodeus, Overlord of the Nine Hells
INTERMEDIATE POWERS (eg. Lolth, Umberlee, Tymora, Hanali Celanil, Isis, Set)
LESSER POWERS (eg. Torm, Tiamat, Loviatar, Waukeen, Azuth) as well as ABYSSAL PRINCES (eg. Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt) as well as the 8 ARCHDUKES OF HELL (eg. Mephistopheles, Baalzebul, Geryon, Moloch) as well as SERAPHIM (Messengers of the gods) of the Celestial Hierarchy
DEMIPOWERS (eg. Jergal, Gargauth, Ulutiu, Gwaeron Windstrom) as well as LESSER ABYSSAL LORDS (eg. Yeenoghu, Kostchtchie) as well as Dukes of Hell (eg. Bael, Baalberith) as well as CHERUBIM (Grand Generals of the gods) and THRONES (Advisors of the gods) of the Celestial Hierarchy

So what do you think? Have it got it totally wrong?

I've had this argument at the WotC website and so would be curious to read your replies.

Edit: Just edited the list to include Supreme Powers.

[ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

Morgeruat · 01-05-2002, 01:48 AM

well... it all depends on where they fight... Lloth is an lesser deity in Faerun, but I believe in Greyhawk she is an intermediate power, and on her home plane in the abyss she is much more powerful, I guess it all depends on where you fight them... if a demon prince fought a deity (granted many demon princes are worshipped as gods by various humanoid creatures) and they shared a home plane the deity ould annihilate the demon.

Cloudbringer · 01-05-2002, 02:00 AM

[img]graemlins/reallyroll.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/reallyroll.gif[/img] n I think the mind boggles.. LOL.. I don't know them all well enough for that kind of delineation.. but yours looks good..

[img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] Uh.. I gotta ask... you taking medication, Geniebabe? Or uh.. drinking lunch, maybe?

[img]tongue.gif[/img] HAHAHAHA

Cloudy

Harkoliar · 01-05-2002, 02:45 AM

bah, none should speculate with the GODs for no mere MORTAL could ever understand them... it gives me a headache thinking about it... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Tobbin · 01-05-2002, 06:05 AM

According to the dieties & demigods book, the previous answer about location is correct. Whoever (or is it whomever?) is on home ground usually has the upper hand. This is in regards to fairly even power distribution. I mean, you aren't going to have a Larva Worm fighting Asmodeus hardly anywhere that the Larva Worm is going to have the upper hand. LOL. Each movement away from the entities home plane weakens the entity slightly. That's why Gods are so weak (if you can call them weak) in the Prime Material Plane. They normally have to gate across as an avatar or some other manifestation. When the manifestation is destroyed, the main connection is severed and the entity is recoiled completely back to their home plane. No true death occurs. If you are on the home plane; however, the entity can be slain as they have nowhere to recoil back to (unless they gate the hell out of there. LOL) Not sure about the breakdown that you have selected though, but it doesn't seem unreasonable. We used to have similar discussions during our PnP meetings. "Man, my God is better than yours. No he isnt. My God would kick your God's ass. Dude, No way. You smoking crack or what?" LOL. Thanks for bringing that up. That was a good memory.

Memnoch · 01-05-2002, 06:10 AM

The ability to draw power from worshippers and the ability to manifest multiple avatars are two of the things that really differentiate deities from abyssal/infernal powers IMHO.

It's an interesting topic and one that I've been thinking about for a few days now.

Draggor · 01-05-2002, 09:49 AM

I think your order of power is pretty right. In the new faerun a gods powers depend on the number of followers they have. Tiamet would probably have more power than some of the other demon princes because she is a god. This would hold true for Lolth too. While asmodeus would probably be more powerful than her physically if they had a fight, she's more powerful in the prime material plane and has more influence because she's worshipped by a whole race native to the prime material. So Tiamat and Lolth are probably just above the other demon princes and arch devils due to being deities, esp considering Lolth is an intermediate godess and described in the FRCS.

Memnoch · 01-07-2002, 08:53 PM

Good point. Lloth, being a deity in the FR, would also be able to manifest an avatar, I would say.

Grand-Ranger · 01-08-2002, 01:15 AM

Ahhh...

I am not sure, I think yours is right Memnoch. There is a manual of the planes out now, I dont know if that will help or not.

I never really got into the order of higher powers. I realy only used them once or twice in pnp adventures, but it seems in my storys I tend to use them quite a bit..

WOLFGIR · 01-08-2002, 04:19 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Memnoch:
I was surprised at how many of us actually play or have played AD&D. [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] So this is a question for hardcore (and not so hardcore) PnP AD&Ders out there (preferably those who have DM'd as well.

Do you think it would be possible for some of the more powerful Dukes of Hell (Asmodeus, Baalzebul, etc) or Demon Princes (Demogorgon, Orcus etc) to be more powerful or at least on par with some of the lesser/intermediate Faerunian deities?
- Well for certain, they can lend powers to believers and followers, the act of gods, to achieve influence of power and since the Faerun world has some quite "weird" events in the past and for certain in the future I see it far from impossible, even think that most of thoose would prefer to reach "godlike" powers or to become gods theselves, either by taking someones place or start anew..

I'm particularly interested in where you all think Lolth would sit in terms of power, seeing as she's an intermediate goddess in the Faerunian pantheon but as a demoness traditionally is ranked below Demogorgon, Orcus and Graz'zt.
- Well since she is a bit of mystery here, she is still the godess of the Drow and some other shadow dwelling persons she would be a mighty foe, yet if the demorgorgon and friends serve a greater god, their powers could be greater then hers... Though I believe that since she is more or less upraised in the FRCS set to be a god, she would probably be hard to usurp from power.. Gods have a tendancy to not be easy to kill...

Another example is Tiamat, who is ruler of the first plane of Hell, but is also classified as a lesser goddess in the FRCS. She also happens to be a Greater Power in Krynn.
- Well, Tiamat has her own plane for herself, see Manual of the Planes, even in the "generic" D&D world, I think that since she has proclaimed herself the god of evil dragons, she has enough powers in hersel to be a worthy holder of that claim.

The way I see it, this is how the totem pole would be:

SUPREME POWERS (eg. Ao, Highgod, Chaos)

GREATER POWERS (eg. Tyr, Mystra, Cyric, Bane, Shar, Horus-Re, Corellon Larethian) as well as Asmodeus, Overlord of the Nine Hells

INTERMEDIATE POWERS (eg. Lolth, Umberlee, Tymora, Hanali Celanil, Isis, Set)

LESSER POWERS (eg. Torm, Tiamat, Loviatar, Waukeen, Azuth) as well as ABYSSAL PRINCES (eg. Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt) as well as the 8 ARCHDUKES OF HELL (eg. Mephistopheles, Baalzebul, Geryon, Moloch) as well as SERAPHIM (Messengers of the gods) of the Celestial Hierarchy

DEMIPOWERS (eg. Jergal, Gargauth, Ulutiu, Gwaeron Windstrom) as well as LESSER ABYSSAL LORDS (eg. Yeenoghu, Kostchtchie) as well as Dukes of Hell (eg. Bael, Baalberith) as well as CHERUBIM (Grand Generals of the gods) and THRONES (Advisors of the gods) of the Celestial Hierarchy

So what do you think? Have it got it totally wrong?
- I think you have gotten it to be more or less as I have it myself. Though of course Demonprinces and such are the next to follow, and even Planetars and Solars of mightier deities can take the place of a lesser god should the need arise.. So I guess it all can be up for grabs..

I've had this argument at the WotC website and so would be curious to read your replies.

Edit: Just edited the list to include Supreme Powers.

[ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

The problem is the kinship of the deities, Mystra herself has been killed twice, but both times came back. Now her evil sister has created the shadow weave to be granted more powers, though her good sister is more of a force in herself to help Mystra, the Gods have always fought for more powers. And well everyone knows that the second in command might be gready for power and oppurtunity...

Interesting topic Memny! Would be nice to see what they said at the other board! [img]smile.gif[/img]

01-05-2002, 01:33 AM	#1
Memnoch Ironworks Moderator Join Date: February 28, 2001 Location: Boston/Sydney Posts: 11,771	I was surprised at how many of us actually play or have played AD&D. [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] So this is a question for hardcore (and not so hardcore) PnP AD&Ders out there (preferably those who have DM'd as well. Do you think it would be possible for some of the more powerful Dukes of Hell (Asmodeus, Baalzebul, etc) or Demon Princes (Demogorgon, Orcus etc) to be more powerful or at least on par with some of the lesser/intermediate Faerunian deities? I'm particularly interested in where you all think Lolth would sit in terms of power, seeing as she's an intermediate goddess in the Faerunian pantheon but as a demoness traditionally is ranked below Demogorgon, Orcus and Graz'zt. Another example is Tiamat, who is ruler of the first plane of Hell, but is also classified as a lesser goddess in the FRCS. She also happens to be a Greater Power in Krynn. The way I see it, this is how the totem pole would be: SUPREME POWERS (eg. Ao, Highgod, Chaos) GREATER POWERS (eg. Tyr, Mystra, Cyric, Bane, Shar, Horus-Re, Corellon Larethian) as well as Asmodeus, Overlord of the Nine Hells INTERMEDIATE POWERS (eg. Lolth, Umberlee, Tymora, Hanali Celanil, Isis, Set) LESSER POWERS (eg. Torm, Tiamat, Loviatar, Waukeen, Azuth) as well as ABYSSAL PRINCES (eg. Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt) as well as the 8 ARCHDUKES OF HELL (eg. Mephistopheles, Baalzebul, Geryon, Moloch) as well as SERAPHIM (Messengers of the gods) of the Celestial Hierarchy DEMIPOWERS (eg. Jergal, Gargauth, Ulutiu, Gwaeron Windstrom) as well as LESSER ABYSSAL LORDS (eg. Yeenoghu, Kostchtchie) as well as Dukes of Hell (eg. Bael, Baalberith) as well as CHERUBIM (Grand Generals of the gods) and THRONES (Advisors of the gods) of the Celestial Hierarchy So what do you think? Have it got it totally wrong? I've had this argument at the WotC website and so would be curious to read your replies. Edit: Just edited the list to include Supreme Powers. [ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: Memnoch ] __________________

01-05-2002, 01:48 AM	#2
Morgeruat Jack Burton Join Date: October 16, 2001 Location: PA Age: 43 Posts: 5,421	well... it all depends on where they fight... Lloth is an lesser deity in Faerun, but I believe in Greyhawk she is an intermediate power, and on her home plane in the abyss she is much more powerful, I guess it all depends on where you fight them... if a demon prince fought a deity (granted many demon princes are worshipped as gods by various humanoid creatures) and they shared a home plane the deity ould annihilate the demon. __________________ "Any attempt to cheat, especially with my wife, who is a dirty, dirty, tramp, and I am just gonna snap." Knibb High Principal - Billy Madison

01-05-2002, 02:00 AM	#3
Cloudbringer Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Upstate NY USA Posts: 19,737	[img]graemlins/reallyroll.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/reallyroll.gif[/img] n I think the mind boggles.. LOL.. I don't know them all well enough for that kind of delineation.. but yours looks good.. [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] Uh.. I gotta ask... you taking medication, Geniebabe? Or uh.. drinking lunch, maybe? [img]tongue.gif[/img] HAHAHAHA Cloudy __________________ "Don't take life for granted." Animal (may he rest in peace)

01-05-2002, 02:45 AM	#4
Harkoliar Jack Burton Join Date: March 21, 2001 Location: Philippines, but now Harbor City Sydney Age: 41 Posts: 5,556	bah, none should speculate with the GODs for no mere MORTAL could ever understand them... it gives me a headache thinking about it... [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ Catch me if you can..

01-05-2002, 06:05 AM	#5
Tobbin Red Dragon Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Holiday, FL Age: 56 Posts: 1,507	According to the dieties & demigods book, the previous answer about location is correct. Whoever (or is it whomever?) is on home ground usually has the upper hand. This is in regards to fairly even power distribution. I mean, you aren't going to have a Larva Worm fighting Asmodeus hardly anywhere that the Larva Worm is going to have the upper hand. LOL. Each movement away from the entities home plane weakens the entity slightly. That's why Gods are so weak (if you can call them weak) in the Prime Material Plane. They normally have to gate across as an avatar or some other manifestation. When the manifestation is destroyed, the main connection is severed and the entity is recoiled completely back to their home plane. No true death occurs. If you are on the home plane; however, the entity can be slain as they have nowhere to recoil back to (unless they gate the hell out of there. LOL) Not sure about the breakdown that you have selected though, but it doesn't seem unreasonable. We used to have similar discussions during our PnP meetings. "Man, my God is better than yours. No he isnt. My God would kick your God's ass. Dude, No way. You smoking crack or what?" LOL. Thanks for bringing that up. That was a good memory. __________________ <br /><br /><b>Protectorate of the OHF<br />Death Waits 4 U ALL</b>

01-05-2002, 06:10 AM	#6
Memnoch Ironworks Moderator Join Date: February 28, 2001 Location: Boston/Sydney Posts: 11,771	The ability to draw power from worshippers and the ability to manifest multiple avatars are two of the things that really differentiate deities from abyssal/infernal powers IMHO. It's an interesting topic and one that I've been thinking about for a few days now. __________________

01-05-2002, 09:49 AM	#7
Draggor Zhentarim Guard Join Date: March 9, 2001 Location: Cranebrook, NSW, Australia Age: 46 Posts: 396	I think your order of power is pretty right. In the new faerun a gods powers depend on the number of followers they have. Tiamet would probably have more power than some of the other demon princes because she is a god. This would hold true for Lolth too. While asmodeus would probably be more powerful than her physically if they had a fight, she's more powerful in the prime material plane and has more influence because she's worshipped by a whole race native to the prime material. So Tiamat and Lolth are probably just above the other demon princes and arch devils due to being deities, esp considering Lolth is an intermediate godess and described in the FRCS. __________________ visit western sydneys number 1 wargames club WSGS on the web at<br />[url]\"http://www.westernsuburbsgamesociety.com\" target=\"_blank\">www.westernsuburbsgamesociety.co m</a><br />yes we play D&D

01-07-2002, 08:53 PM	#8
Memnoch Ironworks Moderator Join Date: February 28, 2001 Location: Boston/Sydney Posts: 11,771	Good point. Lloth, being a deity in the FR, would also be able to manifest an avatar, I would say. __________________

01-08-2002, 01:15 AM	#9
Grand-Ranger Galvatron Join Date: March 29, 2001 Location: Everywhere I wanna go its already where I am,cause I am already there Posts: 2,130	Ahhh... I am not sure, I think yours is right Memnoch. There is a manual of the planes out now, I dont know if that will help or not. I never really got into the order of higher powers. I realy only used them once or twice in pnp adventures, but it seems in my storys I tend to use them quite a bit.. __________________ <br /><br />So if in the shaddows look behind you, because thats where the ranger will be.

01-08-2002, 04:19 AM	#10
WOLFGIR Bastet - Egyptian Cat Goddess Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Sweden Age: 50 Posts: 3,450	quote: Originally posted by Memnoch: I was surprised at how many of us actually play or have played AD&D. [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] So this is a question for hardcore (and not so hardcore) PnP AD&Ders out there (preferably those who have DM'd as well. Do you think it would be possible for some of the more powerful Dukes of Hell (Asmodeus, Baalzebul, etc) or Demon Princes (Demogorgon, Orcus etc) to be more powerful or at least on par with some of the lesser/intermediate Faerunian deities? - Well for certain, they can lend powers to believers and followers, the act of gods, to achieve influence of power and since the Faerun world has some quite "weird" events in the past and for certain in the future I see it far from impossible, even think that most of thoose would prefer to reach "godlike" powers or to become gods theselves, either by taking someones place or start anew.. I'm particularly interested in where you all think Lolth would sit in terms of power, seeing as she's an intermediate goddess in the Faerunian pantheon but as a demoness traditionally is ranked below Demogorgon, Orcus and Graz'zt. - Well since she is a bit of mystery here, she is still the godess of the Drow and some other shadow dwelling persons she would be a mighty foe, yet if the demorgorgon and friends serve a greater god, their powers could be greater then hers... Though I believe that since she is more or less upraised in the FRCS set to be a god, she would probably be hard to usurp from power.. Gods have a tendancy to not be easy to kill... Another example is Tiamat, who is ruler of the first plane of Hell, but is also classified as a lesser goddess in the FRCS. She also happens to be a Greater Power in Krynn. - Well, Tiamat has her own plane for herself, see Manual of the Planes, even in the "generic" D&D world, I think that since she has proclaimed herself the god of evil dragons, she has enough powers in hersel to be a worthy holder of that claim. The way I see it, this is how the totem pole would be: SUPREME POWERS (eg. Ao, Highgod, Chaos) GREATER POWERS (eg. Tyr, Mystra, Cyric, Bane, Shar, Horus-Re, Corellon Larethian) as well as Asmodeus, Overlord of the Nine Hells INTERMEDIATE POWERS (eg. Lolth, Umberlee, Tymora, Hanali Celanil, Isis, Set) LESSER POWERS (eg. Torm, Tiamat, Loviatar, Waukeen, Azuth) as well as ABYSSAL PRINCES (eg. Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt) as well as the 8 ARCHDUKES OF HELL (eg. Mephistopheles, Baalzebul, Geryon, Moloch) as well as SERAPHIM (Messengers of the gods) of the Celestial Hierarchy DEMIPOWERS (eg. Jergal, Gargauth, Ulutiu, Gwaeron Windstrom) as well as LESSER ABYSSAL LORDS (eg. Yeenoghu, Kostchtchie) as well as Dukes of Hell (eg. Bael, Baalberith) as well as CHERUBIM (Grand Generals of the gods) and THRONES (Advisors of the gods) of the Celestial Hierarchy So what do you think? Have it got it totally wrong? - I think you have gotten it to be more or less as I have it myself. Though of course Demonprinces and such are the next to follow, and even Planetars and Solars of mightier deities can take the place of a lesser god should the need arise.. So I guess it all can be up for grabs.. I've had this argument at the WotC website and so would be curious to read your replies. Edit: Just edited the list to include Supreme Powers. [ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: Memnoch ] The problem is the kinship of the deities, Mystra herself has been killed twice, but both times came back. Now her evil sister has created the shadow weave to be granted more powers, though her good sister is more of a force in herself to help Mystra, the Gods have always fought for more powers. And well everyone knows that the second in command might be gready for power and oppurtunity... Interesting topic Memny! Would be nice to see what they said at the other board! [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ Don´t eat the yellow snow

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
So if there are 6 Daedra princes....	johnny	Miscellaneous Games (RPG or not)	4	08-15-2006 05:16 AM
elemental princes	ecob16	Baldurs Gate II: Shadows of Amn & Throne of Bhaal	9	10-04-2003 11:05 AM
D&D, deities and lycanthropes.	The Lilarcor	General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005)	4	08-04-2003 11:20 AM
Listing/stats of the demon lords and archdevils	Nerull	General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005)	2	08-20-2002 07:13 AM
Where is a good site for D&D Deities??	SecretMaster	General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005)	2	07-25-2002 09:12 PM