Gender Question/Poll

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: quote: Originally posted by Luvian: Well... I know I never spend 5 pages of heated discussion over a detail. I'm debating here because I'm fighting against sexist. That's something I really care about. Other people are debating because they got offended by my comment of women being able to get as strong and as good a fighter as men. Apparently, they really care a lot about men being stronger and better fighter than women. Enough to have a 5 page heated discussion about it. Apparently such an offending opinion as mine need to be rectified at all cost.

Dude...Noone, I repeat, NOONE got 'offended' by your comment about women being as strong as men. We were debating your INCORRECT STATEMENT about women being as strong as men. It is/was incorrect, pure and simple, and we were trying to get you to understand that. It is not about 'bruise ego's', it is about a flaw in your logic. You didn't offer an 'opinion' Luvian, you tried to state something *as fact*, that is *not factual*, and several of us were trying to correct that mistake. The frustration you see is based on the fact that, no matter how many times, and in how many ways, that mistake was pointed out to you, you simply refused to see it, continually returned to the 'you're sexist' line, and accused us of having 'bruised egos'. If you had actually bothered to debate the *subject*, and not try to turn it into an attack on people's opinions, there probably wouldn't have been nearly as much 'heated debate'. [/QUOTE]I don't care about your opinion. It's not any more important than mine or anyone else's opinion. Thinking you are right give you no right to try pushing your opinion on other people.

Discussions work in two ways. If you want to share your opinion with me, then do so in a civil maner, then *I* will decide what I want to think of it. You can not decide for me. The goal of a discussion is not to force people to acept your opinion, it's to share different opinions. If you can't do that, then I have no interest in what you have to say.

I alone decide what tone I will tolerate when talking with someone, and if I want to talk with someone, and I've told you already I won't tolerate your attitude. Is it so hard to accept?

If you can calm down a little, then fine, we can share our different point of views, but if you just want to force your opinion on me, then forget it, I won't bother with your posts.

[605]

Typically I always end up playing what no one else wants to, or whatever the party is lacking. So I'm almost always a female or a mage, just because I always play with male role players who refuse to play females, and like to just hack and slash and don't have the patience for casting spells. I'm also the only person who ever played a cleric or paladin, for the same reasons.
I enjoy roleplaying and don't aim for the power everyone else does, so whatever I end up with I play well... It's just usually the butt of all the jokes because there I am, female mage in a party or male fighters. *shrug* I'm used to it

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Gabrielles blades: It is wrong because its entirely too difficult to say even with your vast empirical data the real cause of why the average woman is less strong than the average man. It is my opinion that they are because they dont feel like working hard to get the muscles. I myself am male and am pathetically weak for this very reason. My sister can easily out do me in almost any arena with regards to physical fitness because she likes to spend her time working out a few times a week.

ARRRGGGHHH!!!!!(No, I'm not angry, just a bit frustrated. [img]smile.gif[/img] ) [img]tongue.gif[/img] OK look GB...set aside the 'vast empirical data' for just a second. Set aside the view from the average city window that *shows* men and women, walking side by side, and *SHOWS* that the men are bigger, even set aside our preconceptions about the same. Now, take it from a pure and simple biological standpoint. Now...look down. You, as a man, will find that you have testicles. Those produce VAST amounts of testosterone. That gives you the capacity to build muscle mass in greater capacity and at a faster rate than any woman. Now...does that automatically make you stronger, or bigger? NO. It just gives you the *potential*. As you said, your sister is stronger than you. Good for her. My 'little' sister stands 6 foot tall, has shoulders as broad as mine, can probably lift/carry as much as me, and, I wouldn't even give myself even odds in a fight against her. BUT, and here's the kicker, I get my size and strength naturally. I'm a big guy, I have a big frame, and, having worked out in my youth, I still have plenty of muscle mass. She, on the other hand, has worked her ass off, doing hard, physical labor, most of her life. Currently she is a delivery driver, slinging 100lb boxes around all day. I've lived a fairly sedentary life for the last few years, I've *lost* muscle mass, and am fairly out of shape, compared to what I once was. But, if I started doing her job, and spent the next six months doing it, I would, once again, be much stronger than her. Why?? Testosterone! Simple as that. Men has an inherent, genetic ability to be bigger and stronger than women. Does that make my sister weak by comparison? HAH! Hardly! She'll still be just as strong as she is now...but that will be less strong that me, in the same circumstances.

And again, that's not being rude, or denegrating, or derogatory...it's just being real.

"It is my opinion that they are because they dont feel like working hard to get the muscles."

Tell that to that Hayworth girl. Or any of the other female bodybuilders out there...or heck, to my little sister. They've all worked hard, damn hard, and have great physiques, and big muscles. The only thing I was, and still am, trying to say is: If men and women put out equal amounts of work, the man will be stronger. Look at your own case. You said that your sister likes to work out, and that you dont. Therefore she is stronger. Sure...she's trained for it. But, what you, and others, seem to fail to realize is that I(and Thoran and IAmThumper) are talking about has *NOTHING* to do with comparing the average computer geek male with the average bodybuilding female, any more than it has to do with comparing Mr Universe and the average housewife. We're talking about comparing either A) The extremes: Female and Male bodybuilders, both driving themselves to the point of critical mass to achieve the perfect body, or B) The averages: Joe and Jane American, living their lives side by side, getting basically the same amount of food/medicine/physical activity. And, in both those cases it has been proven, time and time again, that the man is bigger and stronger...ON AVERAGE. It's not really that difficult a point to get IMO.

As for what society admires, thats entirely too broad to hold any water. Many people i know for example dont care who wins or loses, they just want a good match thats entertaining. I myself admire people who try not to be hypocrites (since its so easy to be one) and who are trustworthy, friendly, have integrity etc etc.

I meant that as a general statement. Sure, different individuals admire different traits...but, as a society, we admire winners. If you dont believe me, take a look at the next hundred sporting events you see, and look at how many people who come in last get a trophy. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yes, that is the whole point of a comparison. You (or someone) was saying they wanted to say entirely positive things about men and asked why women might get pissed off about it. Well thats why - by the nature of your comparison you are putting them down when you are saying your "entirely positive thing". For it to be entirely positive you would have to just say men are strong, with no comparison as i mentioned earlier. And i disagree with the conclusion of the comparison on the basis of what is typed above.

That certainly wasn't me. I've said, time and time again, that I admire the women cited as examples(just as I admire the men) as people who have worked hard to achieve a personal goal. All I have ever done is try to compare averages, and try to correct a mistaken impression on some folks' part.

And yes, it is true that someone/something will always be/become better faster or stronger and that life sucks and we should get a helmet. Even the superhumanly strong need helmets though as life doesnt care how strong you are itll kill you in the end. The better/stronger/faster person just might be a woman for a while till the next woman or man beats it.

LOL...yep, absolutely. [img]smile.gif[/img] Unless we're talking pure, physical strength. Then the equally well trained man will win every time.

BTW...That 'life sucks' comment isn't mine. I stole it from Dennis Leary. One of the best stand up comics in the business, IMNSHO.

And no i dont watch weightlifting so i didnt know that fat was what you were supposed to be. But even if it is what you are supposed to be, when you see one person whos body is probably 95% muscle and another whose maybe 75% you know off the bat that even though they are the same weight, they are probably not the same muscle strength.

LOL...I dont know if fat is precisely 'what you're supposed to be', but it is 'what they are'. [img]smile.gif[/img] Something to do with body chemistry and testosterone levels.

You could probably find a couple countries to compare that would have one country whose woman compared to another countries men are equal in terms of average strength/broadness/tallness etc.

Yep, you probably could. Assuming all the same levels of nutrition/medicine/physical labor, of course. But, if you take the human race as a whole(and that *is* what we're talking about), then men are taller/broader/stronger.

And yes, the ant thing was a bit...out there, but it was just an example of what i meant and not to be used as the whole basis of the query. Its a question of, is the person of small size lifting proportionally more than the person of large size? And the ant would probably not crush itself if inflated to human proportions since nature would no doubt simply construct the ant out of tougher material that is capable of withstanding the pressures inherent.

Ok, you're talking about a mass/strength ratio. Sure, I can see that. And yeah, to a certain extent, when you're talking about weight lifting, you have to compare weight lifted against body mass. That's why they have weight categories after all. But, when you're talking the biggest/strongest men versus the biggest/strongest women, the men are still stronger on index, as well as average. [img]smile.gif[/img] I can produce more mounds of empirical evidence, if you'd like. But, I hope that, considering the amount I've already produced, you can accept my word for it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Luvian: I don't care about your opinion. It's not any more important than mine or anyone else's opinion. Thinking you are right give you no right to try pushing your opinion on other people.

The problem, Luvian, is that you weren't talking about 'opinion'. You were trying to make a statement of fact. Stating "Women are capable of being as strong as men." is an attempt to make a statement of fact. I, and others, came in and proved that statement wrong. You responded with rude comments about 'bruised male egos', and 'sexism'. You took it from a debate about fact, and turned it into something considerably more personal and rude. And you now wonder why people are upset?

You've made it perfectly obvious that you dont care about my, or anyone else's opinion. Fine, so be it. But, if you are going to engage in debate, you have to...HAVE TO...care about THE FACTS OF THE MATTER. Otherwise, there's absolutely no point in your even being involved in the discussion at hand, and you're just 'talking to hear your lips flap', as the saying goes.

AFA your silly claim about 'civility'...You were the one that started in with the sexist comments. You were the one that originally made the post that derailed the thread. You were the one that kept up the line of personal attacks. I presented FACTS! Just because they differ from your OPINION doesn't make them incorrect. It just seems to make them unpalatable to you, therefore you have continued with the childish insults to me. Personally, I'm beginning to get offended by them. You have done nothing but accuse me of rudeness, sexism, and bigotry, and, despite that, I have *tried* to answer you, each time, with factual data, but, apparently, to no avail. You still accuse me of rudeness and sexism...fine, so be it. Just remember that *you* are the one that took it to this place, not me.

Discussions work in two ways. If you want to share your opinion with me, then do so in a civil maner, then *I* will decide what I want to think of it. You can not decide for me. The goal of a discussion is not to force people to acept your opinion, it's to share different opinions. If you can't do that, then I have no interest in what you have to say.

True, very true. Polite discussions *are* about sharing opinions. And, if you had kept things in the nature of a polite discussion, I would have responded in kind. But, when you made your comment about sexism, you dropped the 'polite' part, and when you attempted to make a factual statement about relative strength, you changed it from a 'discussion' to a 'debate'. And a 'debate' is all about proving a point.

I alone decide what tone I will tolerate when talking with someone, and if I want to talk with someone, and I've told you already I won't tolerate your attitude. Is it so hard to accept?

Again, fine. But that works both ways. If you want to continue to be a prig, fine by me. I'll respond in kind. I was *trying* to engage you in an intellectual exercise...a debate, but you have, time and time again, made it personal. So, in the end, who's the one with the 'attitude'?

If you can calm down a little, then fine, we can share our different point of views, but if you just want to force your opinion on me, then forget it, I won't bother with your posts.

I'm perfectly calm Luvian. If I wasn't, I'd probably be typing things that would quickly get me censured. Just because I'm forceful in expressing my opinion, it doesn't make me angry, or irrational. Nor am I trying to 'force my opinion' on you. The only opinions I've presented are the ones about whether I like to roleplay females or males in video/PnP games. Regarding the discussion about strength levels, I've presented facts, and data. Two entirely different things. The only person that seems to be confusing the two, fact and opinion, is you.

Finally, if you dont want to 'bother with' my posts...fine, it's no skin off my nose. Just realize that, if I am involved in a discussion, and you come in and either drop a bomb like sexism, or attempt to post, as fact, something that is so obviously incorrect, then I will respond, and either denounce your bomb for what it is, or refute your 'facts' with the truth. Again, simple as that.

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by 605: Typically I always end up playing what no one else wants to, or whatever the party is lacking. So I'm almost always a female or a mage, just because I always play with male role players who refuse to play females, and like to just hack and slash and don't have the patience for casting spells. I'm also the only person who ever played a cleric or paladin, for the same reasons. I enjoy roleplaying and don't aim for the power everyone else does, so whatever I end up with I play well... It's just usually the butt of all the jokes because there I am, female mage in a party or male fighters. *shrug* I'm used to it

ROTFLMAO!!! I sooooooooo know what you mean. I have had that 'last guy at the table' syndrome happen before. [img]smile.gif[/img] Fortunately, like you, I love to roleplay, so it doesn't matter all that much. And, honestly, some of the most enjoyable RPing has come from those experiences.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: quote: Originally posted by Luvian: I don't care about your opinion. It's not any more important than mine or anyone else's opinion. Thinking you are right give you no right to try pushing your opinion on other people.

The problem, Luvian, is that you weren't talking about 'opinion'. You were trying to make a statement of fact. Stating "Women are capable of being as strong as men." is an attempt to make a statement of fact. I, and others, came in and proved that statement wrong. You responded with rude comments about 'bruised male egos', and 'sexism'. You took it from a debate about fact, and turned it into something considerably more personal and rude. And you now wonder why people are upset?[/QUOTE]No, no. Maybe it came out to you as a fact, but I was simply making a generalisation. I wasn't talking about the exteme. I simply meant to say that some women can be as strong as some men.

I also didn't "respond with sexism". I started the off topic discussion, and it was all about sexism, and not muscle. Muscle and fighting abilities was simply an attempt to prove my point on sexism, and even then, it was not about the muscles and fighting itself, but what people thought was the limit.

And I don't mean that women are as strong, I mean that most people don't give them the credits they are due.

As for the theorical potential of women, that's something off topic that managed to sneak itself in the discussion.

You've made it perfectly obvious that you dont care about my, or anyone else's opinion. Fine, so be it. But, if you are going to engage in debate, you have to...HAVE TO...care about THE FACTS OF THE MATTER. Otherwise, there's absolutely no point in your even being involved in the discussion at hand, and you're just 'talking to hear your lips flap', as the saying goes.[/qote] I did care about other people's opinion, but this don't mean I have to agree with them. We can discuss our opinion. We cant ry to convince each other, but at the end, we don't have to have the same opinion. I could ask you the same question, do you care about hearing my opinion, or do you simply want to convince me you are right? quote: AFA your silly claim about 'civility'...You were the one that started in with the sexist comments. You were the one that originally made the post that derailed the thread. You were the one that kept up the line of personal attacks. I presented FACTS! Just because they differ from your OPINION doesn't make them incorrect. It just seems to make them unpalatable to you, therefore you have continued with the childish insults to me. Personally, I'm beginning to get offended by them. You have done nothing but accuse me of rudeness, sexism, and bigotry, and, despite that, I have *tried* to answer you, each time, with factual data, but, apparently, to no avail. You still accuse me of rudeness and sexism...fine, so be it. Just remember that *you* are the one that took it to this place, not me.

[/QUOTE]Yes, I'm the one that started talking about sexism, but I made my best to remain polite, and it's very hard in such a discussion. If you look back, you will see I also did my best to label opinions as sexist, and not people, but it's simply impossible to talk about sexism and not say "sexist".

I never acused you of sexism. I made some generalisation, but I never named you. If I said "Some Americans are criminal", would you feel like I included you? If you feel secure in your opinion you should know I'm not talking about you.

But I did accuse you of rudeness, and you were rude in the post I partly quoted back then. Maybe not insulting yet, but I could see your temper rising, it was easy to see you were getting frustrated, and anger usually come after frustration. I admit I overreacted in that post, I could have told you more politely, sorry for that.

quote: Discussions work in two ways. If you want to share your opinion with me, then do so in a civil maner, then *I* will decide what I want to think of it. You can not decide for me. The goal of a discussion is not to force people to acept your opinion, it's to share different opinions. If you can't do that, then I have no interest in what you have to say.

True, very true. Polite discussions *are* about sharing opinions. And, if you had kept things in the nature of a polite discussion, I would have responded in kind. But, when you made your comment about sexism, you dropped the 'polite' part, and when you attempted to make a factual statement about relative strength, you changed it from a 'discussion' to a 'debate'. And a 'debate' is all about proving a point.[/QUOTE]Well, as I said already, the whole discussion was about sexism. So it's impossible to remain completly polite. But if you look back at the thread, you will see that beside my first two lines comments, I never posted my opinion, I simply defended what I said. You can not ask me to elaborate my opinion on sexism, and them complain I was talking about sexism.

quote: I alone decide what tone I will tolerate when talking with someone, and if I want to talk with someone, and I've told you already I won't tolerate your attitude. Is it so hard to accept?

Again, fine. But that works both ways. If you want to continue to be a prig, fine by me. I'll respond in kind. I was *trying* to engage you in an intellectual exercise...a debate, but you have, time and time again, made it personal. So, in the end, who's the one with the 'attitude'?[/QUOTE]Oh, I agree I'm not always easy to deal with. But it work both ways, I get to chose who I want to talk to, and you get to chose who you want to talk to.

That being said, I have no ill fellings for you. I simply didn't want to discuss further when I could see the discussion was about to turn into a fight. I know my limits and I know what will anger me.

quote: If you can calm down a little, then fine, we can share our different point of views, but if you just want to force your opinion on me, then forget it, I won't bother with your posts.

I'm perfectly calm Luvian. If I wasn't, I'd probably be typing things that would quickly get me censured. Just because I'm forceful in expressing my opinion, it doesn't make me angry, or irrational. Nor am I trying to 'force my opinion' on you. The only opinions I've presented are the ones about whether I like to roleplay females or males in video/PnP games. Regarding the discussion about strength levels, I've presented facts, and data. Two entirely different things. The only person that seems to be confusing the two, fact and opinion, is you.[/QUOTE]Oh, I agree about the facts. Of course women can not be as strong as men. We don't even have to look at the hormones to know that. A smaller body has less room for muscle, that obvious, and women's body were made to carry and take care of childrens, so they have less room for muscle and more for maternal organs like breasts, uterus... That's a fact.

But the facts end here, unless you have been in the future. I know I don't, and I know I don't know what we will be like in the future, so the facts end here and speculations start. Unless you've been in the future, I will consider your opinion of women always being weaker than men for eternity as that, an opinion. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[IAmThumper]

Here's my conclusion about this topic. It seem to me people are very quick to claim they are not sexist and don't believe women are inferior. Well if so, then why were some people so offended by my statement that women could be as strong and fight as well as men they had to argue for 4 page on this subject, sometimes with lots of emotions and going close to flaming? Is it really to correct a fact, or deep down is it really to defend a bruised male ego? I know I would not argue that much for something I don't really care about...

I not offended by the statement that women could be as strong as men! I offended that you insist I'm offended no matter what I say and because you brush off everything we've said by saying it's all due to a bruised male ego!

It seem to me that lots of men in our society claim not to be sexist, but what they are really saying is. "I'm willing to stop publicly saing women are inferior, but only as long as no one try claiming they are my equal."

I'm really annoyed that you would even say this! Listen to what you just said! "It seems to me" Where did you get this opinion?!? Who are you to say what men in our society think!

You keep saying you aren't calling anyone sexist but what do you call this!?

Maybe I'm wrong, but if so, then why do you all care so much? That's something worth thinking over, in my opinion. We humans are very good at deceiving ourselves.

I care because no one else will. If I don't stand up for my rights and what I think is right then no one else will!

I think what Thoran wrote (here) has perfectly summed up what I feel.

I spend hours writing each of my posts because I want to make my points clear and I spend as much time trying to understand the what and whys of other peoples posts. It seems you are just dismissing everything we say out of hand and I really don't see any more ways to get you to see our/my side of things. I don't see any reason to continue so this is my last reply on this topic.