A victory for human rights.

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by IronDragon: quote: Timber Loftis said: Attalus, I think you shot yourself in the foot on this one -- vis a vis your earlier post I mean. Unless you can make some argument that telling me what I can do with my penis in my bedroom is a "proper role," like defense.

It’s important to the religious right for some reason. Their strange view of government is to regulate bedroom activities along the lines their particular cult views as ‘proper.’ IMO the only time what every you care to do with your penis (or any body part) become public business is when your with a non-consenting individual of a creature that cannot consent. [/QUOTE]IronDragon, just fyi, you might want to avoid going around insinuating that those who hold conservative religious views are a 'cult' or cults.

Having some experience of both, I can assure you it's not the case. There are some I'd call cults, but not necessarily the mainstream types I suspect you mean.

Personally, I support the notion of privacy in one's bedroom, even though I don't advocate the homosexual lifestyle. I DO fully support the dignity and privacy of individuals no matter their preference. Most states have laws on the books they don't enforce...if they did we'd all be seeing some odd arrests. In some states half the heterosexual population would be fined or imprisoned.

[ 07-01-2003, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[Masklinn]

Ok, so if I follow you there, you wouldn't allow gay people in men sport teams too eh ? Because they also take showers together you know.

Where else would you not allow gay people ? What about swimming pools ? Public beaches ?

Do you really think because they are gay they can't behave normally in a shower ? Do you really think they're all sex freaks ?

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Masklinn: Ok, so if I follow you there, you wouldn't allow gay people in men sport teams too eh ? Because they also take showers together you know. Where else would you not allow gay people ? What about swimming pools ? Public beaches ? Do you really think because they are gay they can't behave normally in a shower ? Do you really think they're all sex freaks ?

It's not about being a sex freak, and I did not say that nor would I. I'm not a sex freak (riiiight ), but due to sexual tension I would expect a woman I was not even attracted to would have reasonable objections to sharing a shower with me. I think your point about sports teams is valid. I don't know how I'd resolve issues with fairies in football, lesbos in lacrosse, etc., and I am sure they are in every sport. I just don't know.

But, I do know that once we have accetped (as is likely already the case) that some lipstick-wearing flamer in high school who *tries* so hard to be obviously gay (as so many that are that age do) can share a locker room with his hetero classmates, we have pretty well broken down any real logical reason for separate locker rooms. I think we should do like they do in Starship Troopers, and just combine locker rooms -- men and women share.

(I did mention I'm always advancing ulterior motives, didn't I? )

Besides, remember the policy I was addressing is "dont ask dont tell" not an absolute prohibition. I must say I felt uncomfortable in the locker room with gay guys when I've had gym memberships before. But, they weren't wondering around obviously checking out asses or making lewd comments -- which would be a horse of a different color.

[ 07-01-2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Chewbacca]

My problem with some of the logic to defend don't ask don't tell is this:

It is okay to ogle my naked butt in the shower if I don't know your gay, but it is not okay to ogle my naked butt if I know your are gay?

I am truly at a lose for the difference here, other than the cop-out idea that ignorance is bliss.

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Masklinn: Ok, so if I follow you there, you wouldn't allow gay people in men sport teams too eh ? Because they also take showers together you know. Where else would you not allow gay people ? What about swimming pools ? Public beaches ? Do you really think because they are gay they can't behave normally in a shower ? Do you really think they're all sex freaks ?

Masklinn, from what I read, I think they mean in situations where one's life may very well depend on everyone in the unit and where sexual tensions can cause problems. I was really surprised at the extent of things Sir Taliesin mentioned going on in his own unit during Desert Storm.

I don't know that sports quite fits that same set of criteria. [img]smile.gif[/img]

TL, I am right there with you. Get rid of all gender based discrimination. No more seperate rest rooms, no seperate showers, dammit we are all equal and deserve to not be discriminated against due to gender. Why should wait in the long line at the ladies room when I could use the short line at the mens....errr hey wait a minute.........I liked the idea as displayed in Starship Troopers...but too bad the movie sucked so badly when the book was much better [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Cloudbringer]

Timber Loftis, let's watch the perjorative and derogatory catchphrases or names, please!

Originally posted by Chewbacca: My problem with some of the logic to defend don't ask don't tell is this: It is okay to ogle my naked butt in the shower if I don't know your gay, but it is not okay to ogle my naked butt if I know your are gay? I am truly at a lose for the difference here, other than the cop-out idea that ignorance is bliss.

Chewie, speaking as one person who had to do it. I can say it is far far easier to put it out of your mind when you don't know for absolute surety that the guy is actually checking you out....and he better not show signs of arousal.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: My problem with some of the logic to defend don't ask don't tell is this: It is okay to ogle my naked butt in the shower if I don't know your gay, but it is not okay to ogle my naked butt if I know your are gay? I am truly at a lose for the difference here, other than the cop-out idea that ignorance is bliss.

Chewie, speaking as one person who had to do it. I can say it is far far easier to put it out of your mind when you don't know for absolute surety that the guy is actually checking you out....and he better not show signs of arousal.
[/QUOTE]I can buy that logic with a question: Is one persons personal discomfort more important than anothers career and livelyhood?

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Timber Loftis, let's watch the perjorative and derogatory catchphrases or names, please!

Of course I was just playing, Ms. Bringer -- or is that going to be Mrs. Bringer soon? How about soon-to-be-Mrs. Bringer?

Anywho, many years of living with gays, going to gay bars, knowing tons of drag queens, and helping write pro-gay laws have made me a bit loose and fast with the subject. All apologies. It's funny because I have to struggle to say "gay" or "homosexual" instead of "fag" (or "girl") all the time, because it's so hard not to use the very words the culture itself uses to refer to its members.