Question distributing points

Tiela · 01-30-2003, 06:50 PM

Hi, I have a question about how to distribute points when I form a party. I did have a party, but kept having problems with it, so I want to start over with a better party. My question is, is it better to give your character a really high amount of points in one area, or try to make your character more well-rounded? For instance, should I give my Paladin 18 charisma and strength, even though his constitution will only be 10? Or can he get by with 16 charisma? Can my theif get by with 16 dexterity, or do I really need 18? Also, when I level up, do I really need more than 18 points in any given area? I'm used to BGII, when 18 points was the cap.

Does anyone have any advice in this area?

Micah Foehammer · 01-30-2003, 07:22 PM

Unlike the old 2nd edition games, characters with really low stats in certain areas like wisdom REALLY suffer penalties in 3rd edition. Similiarly, low intelligence characters suffer restricted dialogue options. For those reasons, I don't like min/maxing stats.

Fighters can usually get by with a dex of 10 to 12, as they are likely to wear the heaviest armor which usually only allows a max dex bonus of 1 to AC. I also give my fighters a wisdom of at least 10 so they do not suffer any penalties to will based saves.

As for the Paladin, I didn't max strength or charisma - instead going with a slightly more rounded character at start and used the level up stat points to buff his strength, charisma and con.

My thief currently has a dex of 24 (with item modifiers)! I scrimped on strength (10), and gave him slight boosts to con and intelligence. I also made sure that the thief got the weapon finesse feat, as well as rapid fire and point blank fire. The intelligence boost was to get a slight boost in skill points to max out as many of thieving skills as possible.

Also my Cleric has a wisdom that is bordering on the ludicrous - what with the high starting wisdom, several stat points and one item that is NOT to believed.

Those are just my preferences though. Play characters that you are comfortable with. Everyone has a different way of playing the game. Go with what you like. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Magness · 01-30-2003, 09:50 PM

1. Can a Rogue get by with a DEX of less than 18?

Probably, but I strongly suggest maxing out a Rogue's DEX.

Most Rogue skills are DEX based and the extra DEX points help.

Furthermore, DEX determines ranged attack bonus, not STR, which is good since rogue's usually prefer to avoid melee and use ranged weapons.

Next, since Rogues will prefer to use light (i.e. leather and studded leather) armor, this aligns well with the rogue's high dex. (Light armors have high max DEX bonuses + rogues usually have high DEX's == Light armors are good for rogues) It's good to have as much DEX as possible to take advantage of the max DEX bonuses of light armor.

Lastly, since many rogue builds have maxed-out DEX's and lowish STR, it's a great thing for rogues to take the Weapon Finesse feat that allows them to use their DEX instead of their STR for the melee attack bonus (small blades only).

1. Do I really need more than 18 points in any given area?

It depends.

On what, you ask.

It's really good for pure spellcasters (wizards, sorcerors, druids, clerics) to have maxed out stats in their primary spellcasting stat. Sure, you could take a slightly lower value and build it up thru the game every 4th level. But then again, you could max it out at the start and still build it up.

Having your mages be pure class and with maxed out INT (wizard) or CHA (sorceror) is a good thing for maxing out their long term spellcasting power potential.

Melee fighters: It's a demostrated fact that for pure damage potential, 2 handed waeapons are marginally superior to dual wielding in IWD2. This is because 2H weapons get a 1.5xSTR bonus as a damage bonus. That is, with a STR of 18 (STR bonus == +4) a 2H weapon would get a damage bonus of +4x 1.5 == +6 damage points, instead of the standard +4.

Does this mean that all melee warriors should go with 2H weapons? No. Play what you want to play. You can be successful with whatever you choose.

Why did I go thru all this? It is clear that high STR characters are better suited to 2H weapons, while low STR characters (who cannot get any significant damage bonus from 2H weapons) are better suited to dual wielding or just plain old sword and shield.

3. Paladins and stats

Paladins are tough to build. They want to be good in 4 stats: STR, CON like normal warriors, WIS for paladin spellcasting, and CHA for those really nice special paladin abilities.

Here are a couple ways to go at this.

a. The "normal" pally build: How much spellcasting do you want? Level 2 spells? Then you need a WIS of 12. Then take as much STR, CHA, CON as you can manage in that order. Leave DEX at 10.

b. The "no spells" build: I like this build. Of course, I've never given a rat's behind about pally spellcasting.

Example: Aasimar paladin: STR 18, DEX 10, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 20

The low WIS won't really hurt the Will saving roll because the CHA bonus of +5 is added to ALL pally savings rolls. Furthermore, the CHA 20 will mean that the Lay on Hands will be 5 HP per level (think 50 HP at level 10!!!).

This is a really nice melee warrior. Also think of starting as a paladin of helm and multiclassing in 4 levels of fighter so that you can get 3 feat points in your favorite weapon(s). Since you're not worried about spellcasting, the 4 fighter levels won't really hurt your character's "paladin" abilities all that much, beyond the lowering the Layon Hands by those 4 levels. The 3 feat points and weapon specializations is a nice tradeoff.

4. "Is it better to give your character a really high amount of points in one area, or try to make your character more well-rounded?"

This is a matter of intense debate over at the Interplay IWD2 site. Powergamers vs. Roleplayers.

If you are a mega-serious powergamer, you can lower the INT and CHA on your non-spellcasting characters, non-skilled characters without many repercussions. Be careful of overly lowering the INT for rogues, since they live by their skills. A starting INT of 12 or 14 is strongly suggested for a rogue for the extra skill points. Rangers shouldn't have their INT's lowered either if you intend to use their skill points. (If you don't, then really what's the point of playing a ranger over fighter?)

You can build decently "balanced" characters with some intelligent and judicious moving around of stat points without having to go nuts with unrealistically low stats.

Here's some examples:

These are the starting stats of a party of 5 that I'll be starting soon.

Calia
Aasimar Sorceror
STR 10, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 20

Calia is the party spokesman and primary spellcaster. The high CHA is obvious. The INT 16 is for skills and to open up the best dialog options. The low WIS reflects her personality. Actually, it really does. I've taken a 12 CON for a WIS 10, but Calia's personality is such that she's exceptionally charismatic and intelligent, but has a very firey personality and is a little ditzy.

Thyra
Dwarven Battleguard of Tempus
STR 16, DEX 10, CON 20, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 6

Thryra is the party leader. She is the epitome of the dwarven battle cleric. Tireless, strong, wields axe and hammer, fairly wise. She's also a bit loud and surly.

Arta
Tiefling Rogue X / Illusionist 4
STR 12, DEX 20, CON 16, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 6

I conceived Arta to have ninja-ish abilities. She will only take certain low level illusory spells that I have listed the TXT file where this party was created.

Arta's tiefling appearance is minimal. The only physically obvious feature are her catlike eyes. However, she's also abnormally quiet. She will only take if absolutely required. She prefers to communicate by facial expression and body language (somewhat catlike). To her team mates, this isn't a problem. But strangers could find her silence somewhat disturbing.

Connar
Human Barbarian X / Fighter 4
STR 18, DEX 12, CON 18, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 8

Connar is a straight up barbarian/fighter. No real mysteries in his build.

Sidra
Human Druid
STR 10, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 18, CHA 8

Sidra is a straight up druid. I intend on having Sidra be my secondary offensive spellcaster and secondary healer. I intend on having her rely more on spellcasting and archery than shapeshifting.

From looking at these stats, you should be able to see that it's possible to build good characters without totally nuking your stats. I'll admit that I slightly degrade CHA with regularity. But I feel that the number of starting stat points should have been set about 4-6 points high than the base 16. So I don't feel too guilty over having so many CHA 6-8 characters.

Good luck with your new party.

Tiela · 01-30-2003, 10:52 PM

Wow! Thank you Magness and Micah for your help. You've certainly given me a lot of good tips to help get me started! I printed out your responses to have in front of me while building my characters. Thanks for giving me some great advice on getting started!

Dmouse · 01-31-2003, 12:50 AM

Magness, for the paladin figther combo, when should be the best time to multiclass into paladin? Do i start out with fighter then multi class or palading then multiclass and at what level?

01-30-2003, 07:22 PM	#2
Micah Foehammer Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 3,253	Unlike the old 2nd edition games, characters with really low stats in certain areas like wisdom REALLY suffer penalties in 3rd edition. Similiarly, low intelligence characters suffer restricted dialogue options. For those reasons, I don't like min/maxing stats. Fighters can usually get by with a dex of 10 to 12, as they are likely to wear the heaviest armor which usually only allows a max dex bonus of 1 to AC. I also give my fighters a wisdom of at least 10 so they do not suffer any penalties to will based saves. As for the Paladin, I didn't max strength or charisma - instead going with a slightly more rounded character at start and used the level up stat points to buff his strength, charisma and con. My thief currently has a dex of 24 (with item modifiers)! I scrimped on strength (10), and gave him slight boosts to con and intelligence. I also made sure that the thief got the weapon finesse feat, as well as rapid fire and point blank fire. The intelligence boost was to get a slight boost in skill points to max out as many of thieving skills as possible. Also my Cleric has a wisdom that is bordering on the ludicrous - what with the high starting wisdom, several stat points and one item that is NOT to believed. Those are just my preferences though. Play characters that you are comfortable with. Everyone has a different way of playing the game. Go with what you like. [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ “Every tavern’s an opportunity, I say.”

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01-30-2003, 06:50 PM	#1
Tiela Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: July 28, 2002 Location: CA Posts: 24	Hi, I have a question about how to distribute points when I form a party. I did have a party, but kept having problems with it, so I want to start over with a better party. My question is, is it better to give your character a really high amount of points in one area, or try to make your character more well-rounded? For instance, should I give my Paladin 18 charisma and strength, even though his constitution will only be 10? Or can he get by with 16 charisma? Can my theif get by with 16 dexterity, or do I really need 18? Also, when I level up, do I really need more than 18 points in any given area? I'm used to BGII, when 18 points was the cap. Does anyone have any advice in this area?

01-30-2003, 09:50 PM	#3
Magness Quintesson Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Manchester, NH, USA Posts: 1,025	1. Can a Rogue get by with a DEX of less than 18? Probably, but I strongly suggest maxing out a Rogue's DEX. Most Rogue skills are DEX based and the extra DEX points help. Furthermore, DEX determines ranged attack bonus, not STR, which is good since rogue's usually prefer to avoid melee and use ranged weapons. Next, since Rogues will prefer to use light (i.e. leather and studded leather) armor, this aligns well with the rogue's high dex. (Light armors have high max DEX bonuses + rogues usually have high DEX's == Light armors are good for rogues) It's good to have as much DEX as possible to take advantage of the max DEX bonuses of light armor. Lastly, since many rogue builds have maxed-out DEX's and lowish STR, it's a great thing for rogues to take the Weapon Finesse feat that allows them to use their DEX instead of their STR for the melee attack bonus (small blades only). 1. Do I really need more than 18 points in any given area? It depends. On what, you ask. It's really good for pure spellcasters (wizards, sorcerors, druids, clerics) to have maxed out stats in their primary spellcasting stat. Sure, you could take a slightly lower value and build it up thru the game every 4th level. But then again, you could max it out at the start and still build it up. Having your mages be pure class and with maxed out INT (wizard) or CHA (sorceror) is a good thing for maxing out their long term spellcasting power potential. Melee fighters: It's a demostrated fact that for pure damage potential, 2 handed waeapons are marginally superior to dual wielding in IWD2. This is because 2H weapons get a 1.5xSTR bonus as a damage bonus. That is, with a STR of 18 (STR bonus == +4) a 2H weapon would get a damage bonus of +4x 1.5 == +6 damage points, instead of the standard +4. Does this mean that all melee warriors should go with 2H weapons? No. Play what you want to play. You can be successful with whatever you choose. Why did I go thru all this? It is clear that high STR characters are better suited to 2H weapons, while low STR characters (who cannot get any significant damage bonus from 2H weapons) are better suited to dual wielding or just plain old sword and shield. 3. Paladins and stats Paladins are tough to build. They want to be good in 4 stats: STR, CON like normal warriors, WIS for paladin spellcasting, and CHA for those really nice special paladin abilities. Here are a couple ways to go at this. a. The "normal" pally build: How much spellcasting do you want? Level 2 spells? Then you need a WIS of 12. Then take as much STR, CHA, CON as you can manage in that order. Leave DEX at 10. b. The "no spells" build: I like this build. Of course, I've never given a rat's behind about pally spellcasting. Example: Aasimar paladin: STR 18, DEX 10, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 20 The low WIS won't really hurt the Will saving roll because the CHA bonus of +5 is added to ALL pally savings rolls. Furthermore, the CHA 20 will mean that the Lay on Hands will be 5 HP per level (think 50 HP at level 10!!!). This is a really nice melee warrior. Also think of starting as a paladin of helm and multiclassing in 4 levels of fighter so that you can get 3 feat points in your favorite weapon(s). Since you're not worried about spellcasting, the 4 fighter levels won't really hurt your character's "paladin" abilities all that much, beyond the lowering the Layon Hands by those 4 levels. The 3 feat points and weapon specializations is a nice tradeoff. 4. "Is it better to give your character a really high amount of points in one area, or try to make your character more well-rounded?" This is a matter of intense debate over at the Interplay IWD2 site. Powergamers vs. Roleplayers. If you are a mega-serious powergamer, you can lower the INT and CHA on your non-spellcasting characters, non-skilled characters without many repercussions. Be careful of overly lowering the INT for rogues, since they live by their skills. A starting INT of 12 or 14 is strongly suggested for a rogue for the extra skill points. Rangers shouldn't have their INT's lowered either if you intend to use their skill points. (If you don't, then really what's the point of playing a ranger over fighter?) You can build decently "balanced" characters with some intelligent and judicious moving around of stat points without having to go nuts with unrealistically low stats. Here's some examples: These are the starting stats of a party of 5 that I'll be starting soon. Calia Aasimar Sorceror STR 10, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 20 Calia is the party spokesman and primary spellcaster. The high CHA is obvious. The INT 16 is for skills and to open up the best dialog options. The low WIS reflects her personality. Actually, it really does. I've taken a 12 CON for a WIS 10, but Calia's personality is such that she's exceptionally charismatic and intelligent, but has a very firey personality and is a little ditzy. Thyra Dwarven Battleguard of Tempus STR 16, DEX 10, CON 20, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 6 Thryra is the party leader. She is the epitome of the dwarven battle cleric. Tireless, strong, wields axe and hammer, fairly wise. She's also a bit loud and surly. Arta Tiefling Rogue X / Illusionist 4 STR 12, DEX 20, CON 16, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 6 I conceived Arta to have ninja-ish abilities. She will only take certain low level illusory spells that I have listed the TXT file where this party was created. Arta's tiefling appearance is minimal. The only physically obvious feature are her catlike eyes. However, she's also abnormally quiet. She will only take if absolutely required. She prefers to communicate by facial expression and body language (somewhat catlike). To her team mates, this isn't a problem. But strangers could find her silence somewhat disturbing. Connar Human Barbarian X / Fighter 4 STR 18, DEX 12, CON 18, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 8 Connar is a straight up barbarian/fighter. No real mysteries in his build. Sidra Human Druid STR 10, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 18, CHA 8 Sidra is a straight up druid. I intend on having Sidra be my secondary offensive spellcaster and secondary healer. I intend on having her rely more on spellcasting and archery than shapeshifting. From looking at these stats, you should be able to see that it's possible to build good characters without totally nuking your stats. I'll admit that I slightly degrade CHA with regularity. But I feel that the number of starting stat points should have been set about 4-6 points high than the base 16. So I don't feel too guilty over having so many CHA 6-8 characters. Good luck with your new party.

01-30-2003, 10:52 PM	#4
Tiela Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: July 28, 2002 Location: CA Posts: 24	Wow! Thank you Magness and Micah for your help. You've certainly given me a lot of good tips to help get me started! I printed out your responses to have in front of me while building my characters. Thanks for giving me some great advice on getting started!

01-31-2003, 12:50 AM	#5
Dmouse Dungeon Master Join Date: October 1, 2002 Location: Malaysia Age: 51 Posts: 73	Magness, for the paladin figther combo, when should be the best time to multiclass into paladin? Do i start out with fighter then multi class or palading then multiclass and at what level?

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