*sigh* I'm not used to this...

[The Hierophant]

Hiya.

Relationship commitment. Personal politics. Perceived betrayals. Envy. Lack of clear direction. Friendships pulled apart by the stress of negative emotion.

They hit pretty hard when you're not prepared for them.

A few nights ago I went home and 'spent the night' with a woman I've been attracted to for quite some time (let's call her 'Michelle' for anonymity's sake). Trouble is, she is the ex-girlfriend of my good friend (and flatmate), let's call him 'John'. Michelle and John officially split up about a month ago on 'mutual' terms, but it still appears that John has some feelings for her.My being with Michelle has caused John to be noticably depressed. He isn't a great coper...
Michelle is confused as to what to do, she does not want to hurt John, but she says she 'wants this' between us. However, two days ago, she all of a sudden decided that she thinks we should not be together, only to change her mind later that day. Needless to say, she is a little torn up about this.
To add to the complication, another friend of mine, let's call him 'Daniel', who is incidentally good friends with Michelle, also has 'romantic' feelings for her. His envy seems to be showing through by his telling her that she should feel awful about being with me. "how could you do that to John? I seriously can't believe you Michelle. This isn't like you at all" were his exact words (according to Michelle). Again, I don't want to alienate my friends, but I still cannot deny the feelings that I have for Michelle (whom I have been platonic friends with for quite some time anyway).
Michelle is racked with guilt (she is the hyper-altruistic type, I guess that's what makes her so attractive. She's training to be a kindergarten teacher, she really is lovely). John is sinking into deeper depression than normal, and Daniel is retreating into a hightened pattern of aggression and spite.
What to do...what to do?
For me, priority number one is: do what is best for Michelle.
priority two: do what is best for our larger circle of friends. High tension between four individuals within our friend-circle (Michelle included) only serves to stress everyone else out too.
priority three: sort out my own needs and wants.

Right now, it is looking like Michelle and I should let this drop, not for the sakes of Daniel or John, they are grown men for all intents and purposes (I call age 22 grown-up ) and shall simply have to learn to deal with their egos, but more for the fact that everything was so much more stable within our circle of friends before this happened. Plus both Michelle and I will be going our separate ways over the summer. We will both return to Dunedin in February. Maybe we should let things drop for now and see how we feel in a few months time.
Incidentally, I will be going fruit-picking for a month with both John and Daniel from mid November until mid December. We will be living together, in close quarters (tenting on-site at the orchard we will be working at). I don't really want there to be any animosity between us for obvious reasons...

Shit, I don't know. I've never really been this confused. I normally don't feel this way, emotionally. I havn't cared this much about a woman in years. Normally I can sort out what I want to do with my life with ease, no worries. A logical path presents itself and I follow it...But man, now I just feel like I'm stranded in the middle of an ocean, no sense of direction, not sure which way leads to land (to put it in trite poetic terms...).

Maybe no way leads to land, maybe all ways do.

*sigh*. Man... has anyone got any advice? I realise that it may be hard for anyone here to help with this, having not really been told anything about the situation beyond what I've told you. Who knows, maybe my self-absorbtion is completely clouding the issue, maybe nothing is wrong at all... I don't know. And therein lies the issue, I just don't know, do any of you guys?

By the way, Michelle and I have agreed not to see each other for a couple of days. We're going to meet up for coffee later in the coming week to decide what to do.

[Stormymystic]

my advice, forget about the other for a minute, and decide if you 2 are right for each other, if you decide on this, then explain it to your friends, that they should accept it. sometimes, it takes bluntness to make others see how you feel abot it, do not say it in a rude way, but explain how you feel about her, and that you wish they wold at least be hapy you feel that wayabout someone, ok, I will shut up now

I really don't know what you should do. Maybe get some ideas from us yet the decision is yours. I think you made up your own by making a coffee meeting with Michelle to talk things over. That sounds like a good idea. Talking helps. Then when you and Michelle have made a decision, maybe you can also share that with your other buddies to keep them in the loop, or rather your circle of friends. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Wow, Heirophant, that's definitely a pickle of a situation - and one that won't be easily resolved. But I'll offer some thoughts and hope it helps.

Let's start with Daniel first. I think his actions are extremely hypocritical, seeing as how he wanted to do the same thing you did. The anger and spite towards you is bad enough, but to send Michelle on a guilt trip for no other reason that choosing you over him is just plain childish. "How could she do that to, John?" he asked....PUH-LEASE! Would he have asked her the same thing if HE had been the one waking up beside her the next morning...I don't think so. And if he really wants everybody to examine their feelings, he needs to start with himself. Friends and buddies don't treat each other this way. So he needs to decide if he is going to let his bruised ego cost him your friendship (and Michelles too).

As for Johnny...that is a little trickier. When two people break up - even if it's mutual - both of them will still feel hurt, angry, betrayed, etc when the other one starts a relationship with somebody else. I was friends with two guys in college (one of whom is from my hometown) who ended up in a similar situation. After college, I moved away for awhile. When I came back, I met up with my friend that lived here and we caught up on old times. One of the FIRST things he told me was that his former roommate had "stabbed him in the back" by getting with his girlfriend one weekend while he was away from school. Later on, I had a chance to meet with the other guy and asked him about it. Turns out that - not only were his roommate and girlfriend split up at the time of the supposed "backstabbing" - but his roommate was actually dating another girl when it happened. He just had a hard time dealing with the fact that his ex-girlfriend was able to move on after their relationship ended. I don't know the full story behind Johnny and Michelle, but if Johnny agreed to the break-up, he really has no reason to be upset at Michelle or you. (Ok, I know it doesn't really work that way...but he should accept the fact that the break up was as much his idea as hers). Of course, it doesn't help that the "next guy" also happened to be his good friend and flatmate, but if he can overcome his depression, then he should be happy for both of you.

You and Michelle - It will probably help a lot that you two will have some time apart during the summer. As you said, this will give both of you a chance to see if what you feel for each other is real or not. And your month of living in a tent with Johnny and Daniel will give all 3 of you a chance to sort out your feelings about the situation and each other.

The best case scenario would be if the 3 of you could sit down the first night or two and say "OK, we have got to work this thing out and put it behind us." Of course, guys aren't the best at sharing emotions, so that's a lot easier said than done.

I would suggest confronting Daniel head-on about his spitefulness. If you don't, he will just keep it up and you don't need a whole month of that. Just tell him that if he has something to say about the situation, then he should be man enough to say it to your face instead of doing little petty crap to "get back at you".

And I would suggest sitting down with Johnny and talking it over with him too. You might try telling him you and Michelle feel towards each other, but let him know that you both still consider him a good friend too and would like to keep it that way. If your friendship is strong enough - and he realizes this wasn't just a one night hop in the sack for either you or Michelle - then hopefully he will be able to be glad that the two of you are happy with each other. Yeah, it's a long shot at best...but if you sit down with him and just tell him how you feel about him as a friend, maybe it will all work out.

Of course, keep in mind that I don't know any of your friends at all and I'm certainly no expert on relationships. Just consider what I've said and decide for yourself it will work for you and your friends or not. Either way, I wish you the best of luck with Johnny and Daniel and I wish you and Michelle a future full of happiness.

[The Hierophant]

Thank you for the replies. Really. It means alot.

Stormymystic: You're right, sometimes honesty is the best policy [img]smile.gif[/img] Well, ok, ALOT of the time.... ok ALL the time... hmmm... well, maybe

GForce: yeah man. Much-needed advice was the idea behind this thread. Thanks for the support [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Cerek: as per usual you speak wise words [img]smile.gif[/img] Thank you for such an in-depth reply. Alot of what you said is what I've been thinking deep down. It just helps alot to hear (well, 'read' ) someone else say it [img]smile.gif[/img] Thank you again [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Barry the Sprout]

I'm not even going to attempt to give you advice here, as I have absolutely no clue how to sort it all out. But good luck with it! Sounds like you're going to need it...

[Dreamer128]

I totally agree with Stormy on this. Its only natural to feel miserable after a relationship ended, John will get over it. Don't let the love of your life slip through your fingers because you feel bad for your friends. There is someone for everyone. And that includes John and Daniel. Just give it some time [img]smile.gif[/img]
Besides, it is Michelle's choice who she wants to be with. Not theirs.

[The Hierophant]

Had a long talk with 'John' tonight. Followed by a surprisingly brief talk with 'Michelle'. Saw a side in her that John talked to me/warned me about. To be brief: Michelle is out of the picture now. This would just never have worked. I don't regret anything, regret isn't in my nature. But, this lesson has come at a price. Now I have to focus on salvaging what is left of my friendships with John and Daniel... and if that doesn't work, well, I'll go it alone. Whatever, I'm a big boy, I can hack it...

Makes things alot simpler. I can see a way to shore now...


Thanks for all of the concern folks. I mean it when I say it means alot.

[wellard]

Lovers come and go

True friendship is priceless, timeless and ultimately unbreakable
The coming weeks will find out if you John and Daniel are going to be the best mates that will last a lifetime. You may soon discover fools gold or a motherlode.

Good luck Hierophant [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

[johnny]

Seems to me you stuck your head into a hive this time.

Just ask yourself "is the woman in question worth all this" ? If the answer is yes, then to hell with your friends' feelings. The first one had his chance and blew it, and the second one is already circling around her like a hungry shark. When there's money and/or women involved, a lot of "good friends" suddenly aren't so friendly anymore.