Seeking advice for a dual class F/T

[CerebroDragon]

Greetings, intrepid wanderers of the dale.

I've been reading recent posts with vivid interest and in particular have enjoyed reading and considering the 'philosophies' of NobleNick and Aerich on multiclassing and dual classing for the purposes of creating a new party to go through the game. (IWD-HoW-ToTLM)

In general, being more of an oldschool D&D gamer, I have a preference for 'pure' or single classes, since I usually choose not to indulge in MC or DCing.
Actually, my usual parties would probably appear generic and boring to the DC/MC junkie!
Fighter, Ranger, Druid, Thief, Cleric and Necromancer was my last party through IWD and HoW, which was enjoyable - although I did find that my Halfling thief wasn't as effective at crippling strikes/backstabbing as I'd have liked.

This time around however, I'm intending to create a shamelessly vicious powergaming Dual Classed Fighter/Thief, who will hopefully become a roaming shadowy nightmare to hostile creatures on the battlefield.
Here's how he's looking so far:

ThornThistle - A Male, Human, Neutral Evil Fighter.

Level:2

Str: 18/71
Dex: 18
Con: 18
Int: 10
Wis: 11
Cha: 10

Great Sword ** (I hope I can backstab with a two hander!)
Bows ** (Missile specialist to support the short time after he DCs)

As you can see, he's potent where he needs to be but quite average everywhere else. At this stage, I'm planning to DC him to Thief at what I recall NobleNick in posts referring to as "the sweet spot", at level 9. My question is though - how long will I have to wait in the game? Unfortunately, I can't recall what part of the game level 9 characters gets me to from past games, but I'm thinking Dorn's Deep?
What are the advantages and disadvantages for waiting longer or being impatient say and DCing at level 5 or 6? The central issue is that for a long time my party will be without Thief skills. Fighters can mash chests and my cleric can cast 'find traps', but these strategies aren't always going to work.

Supporting ThornThistle though, is a cast of much more usual suspects:

Sir Valarian - Human Paladin. (Name taken from Bard's Tale III...)

Mead - Half Elven Bard (Based on a character I used to play Pen and Paper AD&D with. He was savagely murdered by a black orc shaman fireball. I've honestly never tried a bard in IWD before! So all the more reason to create one.)
I'll be memorising alot of basic obliteration spells with him to compensate for my mage choice. (The obligatory Magic Missile and one of my favourites, Chromatic Orb for instance.)

Dian - Human Druid. (I love their spells and sumnmonings, so I couldn't resist...)

Mithrilana - Dwarven Cleric (Named after my cat...)

Edwin - Conjurer (Made stat for stat, exactly the same as our favourite Thay star NPC.)

We're just about to take on the Vale of Shadows and I must say its been fun so far! Any thoughts on the DCing factors for ThornThistle will be appreciated!

A final nagging question which is eating at me!
At what part of the game does Trials of the Luremaster begin?
Is it obvious and can I still go back and complete HoW and the rest of the game?

Cheers,
Cerebrodragon
[img]graemlins/knightsmile.gif[/img]

[ 11-19-2004, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: CerebroDragon ]

[Otto]

SPOILERS


The ToTL expansion can only be reached through the HOW area, Lonelywood. There's a tavern called the Whistling Gallows. Insided there's a halfling named Hobart Stubbletoes. He'll ask you to go on the ToTL quest with him.

To get into the HOW areas you have to talk to Hjolder who is in one of houses in Kuldahar. Your party must be at least 9th level, but I strongly recommend waiting until just prior to the first fight against Poquelin in Lower Dorns Deep. Otherwise, when you return from HOW/ToTL, your party will be overpowered, and you'll be disappointed that none of the IWD items get any better than those you found in the HOW/ToTL areas.

[NobleNick]

CerebroDragon,

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SPOILERS

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I would expect someone doing all the quests with a 6 person party to get to F[9] somewhere between late DE and late SH, inclusive. this is about half way through IWD.

You probably want to wait to start HoW until EXACTLY the point where you distribute 6 items that you will finish collecting in LDD (do not take the path that this action makes available). Finish any open side quests, to maximize your party's XP, and return to Kuldahar to enter HoW.

Once in HoW, play until you are offered passage to the S___ of M_______ I___. Reject the initial offer. (If you accept, you lose the chance to do TotLM.) Return to Lonelywood and poke around a bit. Then take Stubbletoes up on his offer. This will get you into TotLM with the maximum party XP.

Finish TotLM. Return to HoW and take offer of passage rejected earlier. Finish HoW. Return to IWD. Go to room where you distributed your six quest items and take the path you opened before going to HoW.

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END SPOILERS

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Thornthistle will gain a total of 4 PP at start and 1 PP for each of F[3], F[6] and F[9] (Yes, F[9] is a sweet spot) for a total of 7 PP. If he confines his stacking to two weapons (highly suggested, since he can diversify in other weapons with the PP that he gets as a Thief) then Thornthistle will have either

1.) **** GreatSword and *** Bow
-or-
2.) ***** GreatSword and ** Bow

He will have 126 HP at the DC. If you view him as a ranged weapon support character, I suggest build #1. Use build #2 for an in-your-face now-that-you've discovered-me-I-am going-to-slice-you-into-itty-bitty-chunks type of Thief.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 11-19-2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Marty4]

IIRC, thieves can't use greatswords. I may be wrong, as I was on druids and large swords(I forgot scimitars), but it doesn't seem likely to me. 'course, I haven't played in a while.

Assuming he can, looks great. Since you want a nice backstabber, I'd go with Nick's build 2 for maximum back-stabbage and the ability to go berserk in the middle of an enemy fortification after stabbing, leaving room for the rest of your party to storm in and beatdown.

[Otto]

Originally posted by Marty4: IIRC, thieves can't use greatswords. I may be wrong, as I was on druids and large swords(I forgot scimitars), but it doesn't seem likely to me. 'course, I haven't played in a while. Assuming he can, looks great. Since you want a nice backstabber, I'd go with Nick's build 2 for maximum back-stabbage and the ability to go berserk in the middle of an enemy fortification after stabbing, leaving room for the rest of your party to storm in and beatdown.

Thieves cannot use greatswords, but a fighter/thief can use any weapon. However, they can only backstab with "thief" weapons (long or short swords, daggers, clubs, etc.). You can still hit someone from behind while in stealth mode, but you'll get a message: "weapon not suitable for backstab", or something to that effect. There are also some inconsistencies, like a mage/thief cannot backstab with the mage dagger.

[ 11-19-2004, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Otto ]

[Marty4]

You can backstab with a club? heh.

Yea, I thought it would be something like that. A greatsword isn't really a weapon of choice for a backstab [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Otto]

Well...you can hit someone from behind with a club and get the thief damage bonuses...

I know it doesn't make much sense, but a lot of things in the game don't make much sense...

[Aerich]

Otto has it right. You cannot backstab with a weapon that a normal theif cannot use. Longswords are still fine, I'd go with one of those; or maybe even a shortsword for the Short Sword: Hammer or the great HoW shortsword Blood Iron. With the boots of speed and the yummy sneak attack/backstab modifiers, that will make you a supreme mage/archer killer.

To add my two bits to the F/T build discussion... dualing over at lvl 9 is a good way to go. Do not get impatient and do it sooner, as those fighter levels will give you the Thac0 to hit some of the nastier beings in HoW/TotL.

On core (normal) difficulty, you will hit fighter level 9 somewhere around Dorn's Deep. I would recommend, if you're up for it, going to insane difficulty for a bit so that you can get your thief skills sooner. The worst place in IWD for trap frequency and nastiness is the 5th level of Dragon's Eye, and there's a couple nasty ones in the Severed Hand as well.

That said, you can manage ok without a thief in those areas; I have. The thief in my priest-heavy party dualed from thief to cleric at lvl 11, which was in lvl 4 of DE. Just make sure that your cleric has Slow Poison memorized and your mage/bard have Dispel Magic. Those traps that poison and confuse at the same time are nasty. The traps in DE lvl 5 do not go away once triggered - if you step on it again, you get hit again. Try and remember where they are - and use Detect Traps constantly in that area.

Bottom line: wait until lvl 9 to dual the thief. If you do it earlier, you may end up with a high-level thief that coasts too much through HoW instead of really helping the party in combat. And don't take greatsword if you want to backstab with your main melee weapon.

[ 11-19-2004, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

[CerebroDragon]

Thanks very much, everyone! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

That's precisely the kind of information I was after. I'd hate to ruin the game by missing out on the most 'correct' timing to start ToTLM, so the mild spoilage is handy information.

My party is making steady progress and are playing quite well tactically so far. I've just started making tentative scouting movements in Dragons Eye. ThornThistle is now level 5 and I'm comfortable enough now on normal mode with him to wait out entirely to level 9 for the momentous DC occasion.

His last PP's I put towards bow, so at this stage NobleNick's build 1 is more probable, (thanks for the ideas mate!) but I do very much prefer the descriptive sound of build 2! (mwahaha)
It just suits his character more and also my vision of him when I created him.

Another query I have is about how armour will be affected by the thieving duties, once they begin. I'd say I'll have to be allocating a nice suit of magical studded leather for him won't I? He won't be able to wear plate mail as a thief obviously, but what about when he obtains his fighter levels back?
My gut instinct says I won't be backstabbing anyone running around in jingling chain or lumbering plate armour.

I'm thinking now also about the warnings of Otto and Aerich about not being able to backstab with the Greatsword - perhaps I can simply use the Thief PPs to expand into Shortsword or Longsword? Dagger even? [img]smile.gif[/img]
But will it be enough to ensure the potency of his backstabbing? I hope so! Shall be very interesting indeed planning his progress as he develops.

Once again, thanks for the feedback. I'll keep you informed as to how it all goes.

Cheers,
Cereobrodragon

[ 11-21-2004, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: CerebroDragon ]

[Aerich]

Technically, having 1 PP in the weapon you use to backstab doesn't reduce the damage that much over 2 PP. 2 PP gives you +1 attack and +2 damage, which isn't that much considering backstab gives +4 attack and only multiplies base damage, not the extra damage for specialization, strength, or magical weapons. I've had my F/Ts use weapons they were only proficient with to backstab if the said weapons were worth it (poison dagger, mainly).

However, if you were to have 3 or 4 PP in a weapon, I'd definitely try to have them in a backstab-capable weapon - that extra oomph will increase your chances for a hit AND a clean kill. That said, as you seem very attached to your greatsword, go ahead and just use those thief PPs for backstab weapons. It won't be a problem with a Lvl 9 fighter's Thac0 and exceptional Str added on to the backstab.

You will need a set of leather or studded leather. If in chainmail or above (as a F/T with all skills regained), all the thief skill buttons are greyed out, with the exception of detect traps (which presumably is based on observation, not dexterity or silence). One thing you could do, although it's slightly cheap, is to carry two sets of armour; one set of leathers and one set of plate for when your F/T enters melee. You can even pause the game and change armour right after you backstab. Alternately, just wear the boots of speed, and you can outrun the opposition instead of fighting it out after you backstab.

You could also use Sneak Attack instead of backstab - it does less damage, but is more generally useful. You get bonus damage for hitting enemies on their flank or from behind, although you don't get the backstab damage multiplier (even if it is a backstab situation).

[ 11-21-2004, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: Aerich ]