Guns.

Dramnek....I just realized..when it comes right down to it...your philosophy toward guns is, punish the innocent and ignore the guilty.....very bad policy there guy.

According to the US dept. of Justice, approximately 25,000 individuals annually defend them selves with firearms, thus preventing 25,000 possible innocent fatalities. (statistics from the physical year 1998)

Originally posted by MagiK: Zimring and the Brady group are left wing extremists that purposely skew the statistics to suit their needs and if necessary they invent the numbers they want. Zimring AND the Brady bunch both lump all deaths from handguns into thier death statistics and ignore self defense, law enforcement incidents and accidental death as being different from murder. So I would take their numbers and the NRA's numbers and say they cancel out. Another thing that Anti-gun lobbyists never do is take into account the vast differences in locale. Inner city gun ownersdhip and owners and rural non city ownership and onwers are completely different things. The vassssst majority of the USA is low density population open territory, with most of the 300 million people in the country crammed into a few dozen cities.....mostly coastal. It is another case of apple sand oranges, and like I said, the VAST and by that I mean greater than 99% of the people who own guns, never use them illegally, and do not commit murder, and do not accidently kill loved ones due to mishandling. The accidental deaths are rare and are exceptions not the norm, the criminals, dont have their guns legally, so new laws only affect those people who do NOT commit crimes....[/QB]

No actually, I'd consider them rather conservative. If you think they are Left wing extremists, what on earth would you make of truly left wing parties, like the British Socialist party? Still proudly carrying the Marxist banner after all these years?

Here in Britain, we have a tight gun control and a very low murder rate per 100,000 (less than the U.S.A), period. Britain is also a very multicultural society with many different nationalities and ethic groups.

Why is our murder rate so low?
Because of the lack of firearms.
Can you disprove that?

In 1999 Law enforcement agnecies from accross the USA declined to back a bill to further restrict handguns and firearms rights of citizens. Instead they proposed that current laws be enforced and harsh punishments be meted out. In the 1990's prsecution of firearms violations declined 97%, police arrested the criminals but the Justice department declined to prosecute.

To fix the current problems, enforce the current laws, with stiff penalties, do not punish those who do not break the law...you keep ignoring the fact Dram, that the vast majority of gun owners never did anything wrong..so why target them?

Originally posted by Morgan_Corbesant: i see flag burners as idiots. first off, if you hate America so much as to burn its flag, then you give up your rights as an American, thus freedom of speach is out the window. flag burners need to be shot, locked up, or sent to a country that doesnt have freedoms like America has, so they can see what they are taking for granted. these people only want attention, so they can be "heard" i say to hell with that, if you live here, then you dont burn the flag. if you live elsewhere and do it, then you are just jealous of the freedoms that America has to offer. that is just my opinion however.

Doesn’t it rather go against the concept of freedom of speech and justice to shot someone simply for burning a flag?

[Epona]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: British Socialist party? Still proudly carrying the Marxist banner after all these years?

The who? I've never heard of 'em

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Zimring and the Brady group are left wing extremists that purposely skew the statistics to suit their needs and if necessary they invent the numbers they want. Zimring AND the Brady bunch both lump all deaths from handguns into thier death statistics and ignore self defense, law enforcement incidents and accidental death as being different from murder. So I would take their numbers and the NRA's numbers and say they cancel out. Another thing that Anti-gun lobbyists never do is take into account the vast differences in locale. Inner city gun ownersdhip and owners and rural non city ownership and onwers are completely different things. The vassssst majority of the USA is low density population open territory, with most of the 300 million people in the country crammed into a few dozen cities.....mostly coastal. It is another case of apple sand oranges, and like I said, the VAST and by that I mean greater than 99% of the people who own guns, never use them illegally, and do not commit murder, and do not accidently kill loved ones due to mishandling. The accidental deaths are rare and are exceptions not the norm, the criminals, dont have their guns legally, so new laws only affect those people who do NOT commit crimes....

No actually, I'd consider them rather conservative. If you think they are Left wing extremists, what on earth would you make of truly left wing parties, like the British Socialist party? Still proudly carrying the Marxist banner after all these years?

Here in Britain, we have a tight gun control and a very low murder rate per 100,000 (less than the U.S.A), period. Britain is also a very multicultural society with many different nationalities and ethic groups.

Why is our murder rate so low?
Because of the lack of firearms.
Can you disprove that?[/QB][/QUOTE]You are changing your story now....the original post that my comments were toward was about Wales, not the UK as a whole.

So now you are saying that because A is true for the UK then A has to be true for the USA, which is not the case since our two countries are not similar in scope, geography or makeup.

well you win, Im done trying to discuss this, you are not interested in addressing the fact that you want to control innocent people with new laws because criminals are bad.....if you cannot see the illogic there....debate is pointless.

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: [QB Why is our murder rate so low? Because of the lack of firearms. Can you disprove that?[/QB]

Just on a logic note here and nothing to do with guns at all, you cannot prove nor disprove your murder rates based on limiting your examination to guns.

Just as you cannot disprove that because the USA consumes more hamburgers than the UK that Hamburgers are the cause of a higher murder rate.
\
Hell YOU nor I can even prove your assumption that your per capita murder rate is lower. All you can do is base your assumption on someone elses numbers.

[ 05-21-2002, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Originally posted by MagiK: In 1999 Law enforcement agnecies from accross the USA declined to back a bill to further restrict handguns and firearms rights of citizens. Instead they proposed that current laws be enforced and harsh punishments be meted out. In the 1990's prsecution of firearms violations declined 97%, police arrested the criminals but the Justice department declined to prosecute. To fix the current problems, enforce the current laws, with stiff penalties, do not punish those who do not break the law...you keep ignoring the fact Dram, that the vast majority of gun owners never did anything wrong..so why target them?

Straw man,
If you want to shoot firearms as a hobby I don’t want to stop you. However The costs of making firearms freely available to the public far outweigh the benefits.
I will say again, compare the murder rates for the U.K and America, ask yourself why there is so much of a difference.
Besides tighter controls on gun ownership make it harder for everyone to get hold of them, even criminals, since most criminals won’t go as far as to get one on the black market, unless they know their victims will be armed.
Tightly controlled weapons that are kept at a target shooting range are o.k. But nothing more should be allowed, since the costs outweigh the benefits.

[ 05-21-2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Dramnek_Ulk ]

[Donut]

[/QB][/QUOTE]Umm Donut...if you comit murder...you ARE dy definition a murderer, wether you are family or not. Second, where did you get the statistic that most "Firearm" murders are caused by family members? I think if you check your figures that there may be a high incidence of family killing family but that the methods of murder are not usually firearms, though they too have been used for this act.

[/QB][/QUOTE]

They are not criminals before they commit the crime. And you are misquoting me - I never used the word 'firearm'.