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Old 10-16-2000, 02:11 AM   #1

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The replies from Activision that I am seeing posted to people who have written in with problems of crashing to desktop etc are saying that the game MUST run stand alone. BUT as I understand it Microsoft's requirement for a publisher to use the Window's 95/98 copyright image etc is that the product must be multi-tasking and able to run alongside a mix of applications within a given Windows environment.

This game does not work with anything else, and that is the Publishers statement.

So, in all seriousness and without this meaning to be a gripe, does anyone know if this reasoning is factual? If so, then maybe this is the incentive Activision need to get the game patched. After all if it IS breaking Microsoft's rules then in theory the game would have to be withdrawn from the market-place. My logic beaing the effort of a patch would then be the lesser of the two evils of patch versus withdraw.

What do you think ?
Old 10-16-2000, 05:49 AM   #2

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Well, for one thing, the game does actually work with other apps. Most likely you have at least two or three other windows apps running all the time that you don't realize you do. In fact, average pepole, in my experience trying to fix their PCs, wind up with like 15 stupid things running that they don't realize they are. They are just telling you to shut other stuff down because it will reduce the probability that some other program is interfering with it.

Actually, MANY applications out there have conflicts with all sorts of other programs. Games tend to be very taxing on your hardware, so they are usually less forgiving about sharing with other apps. Just take a look at support pages for things like WINFAX'll find amazingly long lists of programs that shouldn't be run at the same time because of conflicts. There's really no way to avoid it, since every programmer in the world would have to know exactly what every othre programmer did in his or her programs to avoid any conflicts.

Besides that, just on a side note...I don't have the box in front of they even have the licensed windows logo on there? Some people don't even bother. I know interplay was using their own little Win95 compatible picture for a long time, although they may have put the real one on since.
Old 10-16-2000, 03:36 PM   #3
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Well, W&W may let other apps run in the background, but you sure can't switch to one of them and switch back to W&W. I get a sense of how long in development it was when I play this game. It looks like a dos game and runs like a dos game. Then it was patched to encourage it to tolerate Windows. Then another attitude adjustment to get it to cooperate with 3D cards. But I don't know, I wasn't there. I do think there will be a patch. This game is potentially one of the best ever RPGs and a patch is a relatively small expenditure for that kind of stature.
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Old 10-16-2000, 05:03 PM   #4

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Actually I've gotten it to run fine without closing in my firewall is till up, my anti-virus is running, etc. Whenever I have a new game and have problems with it, the first things that they say are close resident programs, etc, then run in 640x480 (yeah, right) and a bunch of other lazy meaningless crap. It's almost like they are going to ask if my PC is plugged not all of us are PC literate, but a LOT of gamers are, and asking us to reduce our settings to a point that makes our PC's technology 10 years out of date is simply crap, and if it did fix our problems then it's the result of shoddy programming. Most of us have similar hardware, the same OS, etc. I din't buy a PIII 600 EB, a GeForce and 256MB of PC-133 ram so some putz can tell me to run at 640-480 in software mode, (what am I playing, Leisure Suit Larry 1?!), and to shut down all my resident programs....actually I don't mind the resident program thing, but with well made games it's never necessary...sure for a system hog like UT I can understand it.....

In any case, they always say the same thing, and regretfully I have found Activision is one of the worst offenders. Too bad, because they're releasing some of the best games. I had to buy a TNT2 just to run Vampire!

Those types of suggestions are meant for the truly PC challenged. So why do they give them to experienced gamers who probably know more than the tech they're talking too? Because they don't know what's wrong, and they don't know how to fix it. I'd rather hear, "well, we released it, and it SHOULD work fine, but if not, let us know what you got and we'll look for a fix." Cutting edge hardware is tempermental....I know that. But give me something to work with, not the idiotic stuff they always say first (do you have the latest drivers?)...We're gamers, give us SOME credit. I not only have the latest drivers, I've kept copies of the last 5 releases in case I have compatibility problems with your games.............

Now I'm not dissing the techs, I've found them to be god people who want to fix your problem......but the info they're getting is crap. And the suggestions they are told to give you are crap. They should be told to be up front (and most are, after they go through the crap part) and look at patches as an obvious and viable option....not a last resort. Many times, in fact, more often then not, the problem isn't on our side. It's on theirs.

Just a little rant
Old 10-16-2000, 06:04 PM   #5

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The game was always intended for windows 95/98. The lead designer/programmer comes from a DOS background though. So you get what you have. I do think the 3D Acceleration should have been designed as a foundational element, but at the time of creation, 3D Acceleration was put a blip on the PC Market.
Old 10-17-2000, 01:42 AM   #6

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I apologize for being so blunt, but I think you are a big whiner. Maybe it's because I grew up with DOS, and I've been a programmer working with Microsoft products for years and years, and I truly hate Microsoft, that I can't be sympathetic. You know Windows 98 has it's own bugs (like it almost always hangs when I'm shutting down) so maybe the problem is with Windows? But you aren't telling BG you won't buy any of HIS products. I think at least some of your anger is misplaced. Sounds like you have a sucky internet connection, as well. Again, not the game's fault. And as for reading email, I save and exit the game, check my mail, then restart the game. What's the big deal?
Old 10-17-2000, 05:17 AM   #7

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But this is crap. What I mean is not your replies !! but the fact that I cant run my other of mix of applications in the background whilst running the game then alt-f4 to minimise the game so that I can go to the other apps. For example, I connect to the net cos thats my business, and where I live net connection is crap so it regularly drops. I want to know when emails arrive so I need my net connection up. This is all very reasonable. BUT when the connection drops the game automatically minimises and you cant recover it except to end task it or if an email arrives I have to QUIT out of the game to read the email. Absolute bollocks. This game is NOT compatible with running other than stand alone, as if you have to quit out of it to do anything else then it completely defeats the point of being a windows based game and may as well run in DOS mode. Effectively that is what it is doing and it is an expedience that they have released it as a windows game when it isnt. I really dont give a shit what the background is of DWB - we all have Dos backgrounds etc but that doesnt mean that everything you do today has to be couched in past technologies. Also it is up to Activision to INSIST that the product supplied to them by the developers is a Windows game and they didnt do that, just packaged the code and sold the game. They havent even corrected the old name of the game "Deep6" which shows up in file names etc. Its completely shoddy. This game will BOMB and deservedly so. It IS a FANTASTIC game but no matter how good the story etc etc if it doesnt run then it isnt any bloody use to at least 50% of the potential audience. It also bugs me (excuse the pun) that for newcomers to RPG they are gonna be put off for life if this is their first experience of an RPG.

I think DWB has made a BIG mistake. I can understand his frustrations with finding a publisher after a 4 year search and there is a logic that says at least is HAS been published, but I for one will not buy another of his games UNTIL I have read notice boards etc to see whether it is a viable proposition. I bought this game straight away because I am a fan of DWB, but not again. I feel there must be a considerable number of others who will also adopt this approach to future DWB games.

No amount of wishy washy excuses can excuse poor quality in any form. This game IS poor quality. It has the guts of a great game but the final product SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED IN ITS CURRENT FORM.

I can almost forgive the dreadful interface etc etc but what I cannot condone is the fact that it is not really compatible with the operating system it pretends to run on. Absolute total friggin crap.

DWB - IF you are reading this, which I very much doubt, then dont rely on your rep in future because its blown. I truly hope you can produce further wonderful games but for god's sake man get the bloody things to work with the operating system. Its pretty damn basic and if you are a programmer of any worth you can do this with very little effort.
Old 10-17-2000, 02:50 PM   #8

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The game Everquest FORBIDS you to switch to your desktop. There are many measures in there to assure that you can't.

Care to comment on that as it affects the Windows license agreement? That seems a much more worthwhile discussion piece.
Old 10-17-2000, 07:57 PM   #9

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Well, the game runs great with other applications, but you can´t alt-tab out, or there will be trouble, bigtime. Many developers hinder this in online-multiplayer games so it shouldn´t be so easy to start another program to cheat etc, but in this game there is really no point. I must say it is bad programming really, since even old dosgames run in windows can deal with this function. But im willing to take it since the game is ■■■■■■■ awesome.

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