The unchecked wave of immigration into the United States

[Dodo]

Heh, partially agreed then. What I'd suggest to the two continents as a whole is a huge trade boom, Spain got back on their feet that way (which is a joke). I'm not trying to be completely anti-American, nor anti-immigrant, trying to find out what's best.

Nice to meet you. I'm not Venezuelan (though I live here), I'm American/Chilean, from Bluefield, West Virginia. You never would have thought, eh?

[Lord of Alcohol]

Originally posted by Dodo: Heh, partially agreed then. What I'd suggest to the two continents as a whole is a huge trade boom, Spain got back on their feet that way (which is a joke). I'm not trying to be completely anti-American, nor anti-immigrant, trying to find out what's best. Nice to meet you. I'm not Venezuelan (though I live here), I'm American/Chilean, from Bluefield, West Virginia. You never would have thought, eh?

And nice to meet you too Dodo. As for I "wouldnt have thought" lol well many Europeans on this board speak better English tnan a native English speaker so I take nothing for granted in that respect

[antryg]

Living in Texas I think that I am a little closer to this "invasion" than you. I understand your frustration. Many places in Texas, even large cities like San Antonio, have such a large immigrant population that not speaking Spanish is a liability in the job market. I have worked with and have had many friends and employees who are Hispanic. In East Texas they are the only people willing to work the hard and bizarre hours in the dairy industry. Hispanics often take jobs at wages that nobody else will work. Yes, at times, they will do an excellent job at a lower cost or pay rate. I've experienced this working construction 25 years ago and the effects of NAFTA in trucking today. This doesn't mean I want to tear down the Statue of Liberty and what it has always expressed about our national vision. In Dallas we have large population groups of Chinese, Korean, and Vietnamese. Often they too have many famillies in one apartment or house. I don't believe people ever do this by choice but rather by necesity. Immigrants do come to the USA and not all are legal. I don't want to send them away. My full blood Shoshone (American Indian) relatives took the same approach to the European "invasion". I feel all people should have the right to work for freedom and security. Some do it in the countries of birth. Some find it in America.

[johnny]

I hear you LoA, and i understand you completely. Same thing is happening here.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by johnny: I hear you LoA, and i understand you completely. Same thing is happening here.

Just make sure to point the blaming finger in the direction of the attitude of the Dutch people and the employers, who are the ones employing illegal Poles every Summer to do the dirty work here in the Netherlands (in the horticulture for example). You know, the kind of work the average Dutch citizen spits on, unless it's a student Summer job or ridiculously well paid. Sitting on the couch doing absolutely nothing in our country earns you almost the same amount of money when you go work on a bulb-farm, so why bother?
It's too easy to say "they're taking our jobs", because they aren't. They're just doing the jobs we snub and ignore. It's been this way in the Sixties when "we" brought a large number of foreign labourers from Turkey and Eastern-Europe to our country because "we" needed someone to do the dirty work, and it's still this way nowadays.
(note: this doesn't necessarily apply to other countries... The Netherlands is a country with very little unemployment (or at least until the new greedy Government gets what it wants, which is remarkably enough killing a large number of State-aided "Melkert-jobs", very likely and directly causing more unemployment again; because they have to "make cuts", even though they're spending 7 billion (!) dollars on a yet to be designed and manufactured combat airplane at the same time, the hypocrites ), so the situation is most likely different over here. I just don't think the situations can be really compared).

[ 11-01-2002, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Ar-Cunin]

Back to the construction industri. We've had some of the problems that LoA descibes here in DK (with workers from Eastern Europe) - but the labour unions are quite good at stamping it out. They have patrols which checks that forign labourers get the minimum wages (more than 10 US$/hour) - if not the police is called - the firm/person that hired them is fined and gets to pay the difference in pay. If the workers are here illigaly they are sent home - but still get the money they are owned.

General immigration. It is only natural for people living outside the West to 'envy' us our lifestyle - and to want to get a piece of it. Hence the large number of economic refugees commming this way - and the increasingly tough measures taken to keep them out. In Denmark there have been a considerable tightening of the immigrationslaws - f.x. you now have to have lived in DK 7 years to be eligible for citizenship (3 years previously). And Australia have recieved a lot of criticism for how they treat refugees etc. etc.

[Barry the Sprout]

LoA... who's driving wages down? The immigrants aren't coming in with the shout of: "I want to work for shit wages and undercut all the other people in the market!". They want to work as everyone else does in the country. The employers take advantage of the fact that they have no choice after arriving and only offer them appalling wages. Thats how the costs are kept low. If there were a minimum wage in the construction industry then this problem would be a bit of a moot point. Maybe the answer isn't to just refuse the workers any kind of solidarity but instead to attempt to incorporate them into your unions and attempt to gain improvements for all of you. Truth be told the bourgoisie would love to see individual workers fight against each other as it means that you miss what both of you have in common - you are both being royally screwed by the ruling class.

If it were an American being paid appalling wages then his fellow workers would be up in arms in an attempt to get fair pay. With the immigrants its a different story - despite all evidence to the contrary they are considered the enemy, not the bosses who undercut you by taking advantage of them. Its all a bit worrying as far as I can tell. I'm not accusing you of racism, just trying to say that the distinction between people and other types of people is a bit of a false one as far as labour goes. Lets try re-writing your original complaint in a bit of a different way:

There has been an influx of people into the country, people are somehow more suited to living and working in poor conditions than people so they have less expenses. As a result people get paid less money and less people are willing to come into the labour market as despite the fact that there are more jobs available there are less jobs available for people instead of people...

Oh, I've gone cross eyed...

[Thoran]

This particular argument has been ongoing for Hundreds of years... I've read magazine articles from the railroad boom days where Americans were complaining about the Irish, or the Chinese, or whoever in much the same tone (actually a bit worse) that many of the above posts have.

I tend to look at the problem from a 10,000 foot historical perspective... and historically speaking the USA has benefited MIGHTILY from immigration. This doesn't mean I favor letting illegal immigration run rampant, but moderate immigration levels are going to be good for us all over the long haul. It wasn't long ago where many industries with low paying jobs (fast food comes to mind) simply COULDN'T get enough kids willing to work (spoiled little shits comes to mind [img]smile.gif[/img] ), and those are the kinds of positions that immigrants have been stepping into forever. These people bring new ideas and energy to our country, and while some send their money home, and eventually go back home... many stay and become one of us.

As a guy who participated in hiring Engineers for my group for years (until the recent slowdown), I tend to feel like it's the countries that are losing their best and brightest to the US that should be mad. We get brilliant kids in our colleges, and a good portion of them stay on afterward to work in the US (and many become Citizens). The contributions of that portion of the Immigration equation cannot be overstated.

The only thing I'd changed is that I believe all immigrants should be required to learn English within 5 years or face deportation. No more multiple languages everywhere.

[Charean]

Others have said this, but if you feel strongly about it, write letters, sign petitions and get your thoughts across. There are coalitions to close our borders a bit, and with the hostilities as they are, it is relatively easy to get legislation passed about this.

If this is something you feel strongly about, enough to act instead of just talk about the problem, then inform yourself on the facts. Arm yourself with knowledge and then you are better able to do something. The least effective people are the ones who argue on emotion.

Here are some sites that may be of interest:

http://www.bergen.org/AAST/Projects/...migration.html

http://www.epf.org/research/newslett...8/eb980917.asp

http://www.ailf.org/polrep/2002/pr011.htm

http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/07/14/p10s3.htm

http://www.closeup.org/immigrat.htm

www.gmfus.org/Apps/GMF/GMFWebFinal.nsf/0A168FAA56D0029F85256BA400732CBD/ $File/US%20Immigration%20Policies.pdf

http://www.fairus.org/html/03101603.htm

[Timber Loftis]

I think it's pretty simply, IMO.

1. The American border is a seive.
2. Some jobs when viewed on the supply/demand curve do not provide the dollars, hours, flexibility, or working environment that Americans want. If the employers paid the wages US workers want for these jobs, they would make no profit. So, immigrant labor is where they go to find a pool of happy and willing workers who will take less pay, benefits, or perks just to have *any* job. Added bonus: if they are illegal immigrants, it's under-the-table work, so no FICA or SS taxes come into play, making the labor another 17-25% cheaper.
3. National borders generally are breaking down. In 20 years, American and other first-world interests will own much more of the world than they do now, and there will be more and more factories in other countries with names like Ford plastered on them.
4. The production/manufacturing industries are the first to go, as they are the ones with (a) lots of unskilled labor positions to fill for cheap wages and (b) a history of struggle with Unions that they can avoid by leaving the country (example: seamstress union and textile industry, which has already left the building).
5. Today, and increasingly more, the first world nations will make their most profit at home in the services industries: hotels, entertainment, lawyers, doctors, computer techs (not manufacturing ), business planning, financial investing, administration, etc, etc.

These are simply the trends. They are evidenced by the fact that the WTO, wherein a lot of the contentions come at loggerheads, is such a focus of fuss. It's all driven by the market: if it's cheaper to grow a banana in Nicaragua than in those cute little mediterranean islands, the bananas will be grown in Nicaragua. And, the new trade system the world has adopted supports this. Which is why Chiquita banana, owning most of the fields in Nicaragua (but headquarted and managed, i.e. has its "service industry" functions in Cincinnati), sued the EU (or, rather, convinced the state dept. to sue the EU) in the WTO tribunal for the EU's subsidies to those cute islands. The US/Chiquita won by the way - 3 times (the EU kept passing protectionist laws trying to prop up the economies of these islands while complying with the WTO rulings).

So, in sum, economic forces are directing manufacturing to where there is cheaper labor and costs, while directing the first world economies to concentrate on service-professional industries. And, the world's trade rules, which are enforceable, support this trend. It's inevitable.

There are tons of opinions that this system sucks, to be sure. But, I'm just trying to supply a "why." Now I'm rambling, so I'll shut up.