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Old 01-26-2003, 10:54 AM   #1
Eisenschwarz
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http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14884

Who’d have thought it?
Members of a party which is mainly concerned with making people accountable and non violence, put on a no fly list, thus preventing them travelling from abroad, as though they were some kind of terrorist.

And of course:
“The Transportation Security Agency says it compiles the list from names provided by other agencies, but it has no procedure for correcting a problem. Aggrieved parties would have to go to the agency that first reported their names. But for security reasons, the TSA won't disclose which agency put someone on the no-fly list.”

So there’s no way of finding out who it was or correcting it, this just has Bush goverment trying to silence it’s opponents written all over it.

“Officer Stanley took Stuber into a room and questioned him for an hour. Around noon, Stanley had introduced him to two Secret Service agents. The agents took full eye-open pictures of Stuber with a digital camera. Then they asked him details about his family, where he lived, who he ever knew, what the Greens are up to, and other questions.

At one point during his interrogation, Stuber asked if they really believed the Greens were equal to al Qaeda. Then they showed him a Justice Department document that actually shows the Greens as likely terrorists – just as likely as al Qaeda members.”

“Stuber said he could only conclude that the Greens, whose values include nonviolence, social justice, etc., are now labeled terrorists by the Ashcroft-led Justice Department.”
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Old 01-26-2003, 12:50 PM   #2
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Eisen for being non-violent the Green party here in the US has been responsible for quite a number of maiming's and human injuries through their tactic of spiking trees about to be taken by lumberjacks. Seems to me they are quite hypocritical in their views some times. Puts me in mind of something a great philosopher once said..."Let he who is without sin cast thefirst stone."
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Old 01-26-2003, 01:52 PM   #3
Skunk
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Quote:
Eisen for being non-violent the Green party here in the US has been responsible for quite a number of maiming's and human injuries through their tactic of spiking trees about to be taken by lumberjacks.
Any illegal activity which is designed to influence public or government opinion meets the definition of terrorism under the Patriot Act - so it would also include Greenpeace (whose actions although non-violent are often illegal).

The definition of terrorism has become a little too wide...
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Old 01-26-2003, 05:32 PM   #4
Ronn_Bman
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A Muslim terrorist doesn't follow the true beliefs of Islam.

A KKK member doesn't follow the true beliefs of Christianity.

Just because someone is a Green Party member doesn't make them any less likely a terrorist candidate based on the beliefs of their party. Being a member of any group doesn't necessarily mean you follow their ideals.

If Bush were going to use illegitimate means to remove his political adversaries, he'd probably start with the Democrats.
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Old 01-26-2003, 06:01 PM   #5
Barry the Sprout
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
A Muslim terrorist doesn't follow the true beliefs of Islam.

A KKK member doesn't follow the true beliefs of Christianity.

Just because someone is a Green Party member doesn't make them any less likely a terrorist candidate based on the beliefs of their party. Being a member of any group doesn't necessarily mean you follow their ideals.

If Bush were going to use illegitimate means to remove his political adversaries, he'd probably start with the Democrats.
I think these people have been singled out because of their involvement with the party, not their individual actions. Which means that they are being considered terrorists due to the actions and beliefs of the party. Weird.

This happens in Europe as well though. I had a friend who was refused entry to Italy for the European Social Forum as he was the national secretary of No Sweat - a group that campaigns against sweatshop labour across the globe. A group that I am also quite heavily involved in in North London...

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Am I going to be able to go anywhere later on in life (when I actually might be able to afford to do so :s). What I do at present, or what this man did to be more pertinant, is hand out leaflets outside Nike and Gap, hold banners on marches, and raise money for Indonesian Trade unions. Oooooh, real danger to the state... :s
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Old 01-26-2003, 10:10 PM   #6
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skunk:
quote:

Eisen for being non-violent the Green party here in the US has been responsible for quite a number of maiming's and human injuries through their tactic of spiking trees about to be taken by lumberjacks.
Any illegal activity which is designed to influence public or government opinion meets the definition of terrorism under the Patriot Act - so it would also include Greenpeace (whose actions although non-violent are often illegal).

The definition of terrorism has become a little too wide...
[/QUOTE]I didn't say anything about terrorism...why did you quote me then go off on a completely nonrelated tangent? I was countering Eisens claims that the Greens were far far from non-violent. I did not call them terrorists....though now that you brought it up they are eco-terrorists, trying to impose their will via illegal means since they cannot sway the majority to their cause via legal methods.
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Old 01-27-2003, 01:47 AM   #7
Rokenn
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
quote:
Originally posted by Skunk:
quote:

Eisen for being non-violent the Green party here in the US has been responsible for quite a number of maiming's and human injuries through their tactic of spiking trees about to be taken by lumberjacks.
Any illegal activity which is designed to influence public or government opinion meets the definition of terrorism under the Patriot Act - so it would also include Greenpeace (whose actions although non-violent are often illegal).

The definition of terrorism has become a little too wide...
[/QUOTE]I didn't say anything about terrorism...why did you quote me then go off on a completely nonrelated tangent? I was countering Eisens claims that the Greens were far far from non-violent. I did not call them terrorists....though now that you brought it up they are eco-terrorists, trying to impose their will via illegal means since they cannot sway the majority to their cause via legal methods.
[/QUOTE]Last I checked the Green Party was offically recognized as a political party in the US in the majority of states (I think it is around 35-40 now). They even ran a canidate for the Presidancy last time around, you may remember a guy named Ralph Nadar.

The actions you descriped Magik are mostly associated with Earth First! they have as much to do with the offically recognized political party as the KKK's actions have to do with the Republican Party's. As a matter of the fact the Green Party's way do doing thing is pretty antithetical to the the direct action fringe. To the best of my knowledge even the radical fringe of the environmental movement that advocated such violent direct action stopped over a decade ago. Now they go for the more of the non-violent tree sitting route.

Besides the illeagal actions of major corporations kill, maim and wreck more widespread economic damage then the tree spikers ever did. Maybe we should start adding CEO's like Kenneth Lay to the No-Fly lists [img]smile.gif[/img] But he did give a bucket full of bucks to Dubya, so I guess that is far from likely.

edit:

Oh, and btw. I've been a registered Green in California of over 10 years, and have NEVER advocated or approved of violent direct action in support of my beliefs. This is also at the root of why I have severe reservations about war in Iraq, till all other means have been exhaused. Violent direct action (like War) should always be the absolute last method of resolving international problems, not the first.

[ 01-27-2003, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Rokenn ]
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Old 01-27-2003, 04:24 AM   #8
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Rokenn,
That was informative - I don't know anything about the Greens on your side of the pond - but on this side they are also a peaceful movement.

Magik,
I know you didn't mention the word terrorist - I deliberately added that dimension because tree spiking (which causes indiscriminate injury/death) would be classified as such these days.

I didn't mean any offense to you (or anyone else) - and I certainly wasn't attacking you - or Eisen for that matter - so I apologise if it caused offense...
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Old 01-27-2003, 11:48 AM   #9
Timber Loftis
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As far as I can tell, radical = terrorist. That of course means that today's approach to ferreting out terror = McCarthyism. This is side.

What price freedom? What price safety? Can you have both?

Someone made a charge that GreenPeace undertakes illegal activity. As someone who's sat on the same side of the table as GreenPeace in climate negotiations, I'm just curious as to what those illegal actions are.
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Old 01-27-2003, 11:50 AM   #10
Rokenn
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Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
As far as I can tell, radical = terrorist. That of course means that today's approach to ferreting out terror = McCarthyism. This is side.

What price freedom? What price safety? Can you have both?

Someone made a charge that GreenPeace undertakes illegal activity. As someone who's sat on the same side of the table as GreenPeace in climate negotiations, I'm just curious as to what those illegal actions are.
Watch it TL, you'll get added to the No Fly list as well.
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