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Old 06-21-2002, 10:14 AM   #31
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oblivion437:
If you fail to see that you exist to your own purposes, and therefore cannot give rise to meaning of existence without the aid of a diety, you are truly weak-minded, and certainly afraid of the unknown.
These are two unproven assumptions and are personally insulting to people of faith and is not condusive to healthy conversation. It is considered trolling and is not allowed on this forum under the ToS.

I suggest you edit your comment and refrain from making insulting assumptions about peoples mental health and fear levels based on what they believe.
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Old 06-21-2002, 10:51 AM   #32
Memnoch
Ironworks Moderator
 

Join Date: February 28, 2001
Location: Boston/Sydney
Posts: 11,771
Quote:
Originally posted by Oblivion437:
If you fail to see that you exist to your own purposes, and therefore cannot give rise to meaning of existence without the aid of a diety, you are truly weak-minded, and certainly afraid of the unknown. Don't take this as an attack on your intelligence, a lot of intelligent people are weak-minded, they just turn to religion, as life is a little too unpredictable for them. Like I said, some people need this thing to cling to, and I say better religion, which has an acceptable moral code, than say, governments, which violate their own codes when they wish, but force their people to obey those same codes (another discussion, which I'll gladly start up if anyone is interested in that as well).
EDIT: Skywalker, you make more sense than all the philosophers combined.
Hi Oblivion, welcome to our forum. You are entitled to express your disbelief in the existence of a deity, but please be careful in labelling people who believe the opposite as being "weak-minded" or "unintelligent", which can be construed as insulting and flamebaiting.

Conversely (and to show I am not biased since I'm not) I would ask that people of faith not label unbelievers as "close-minded" or "blind" as this can be just as insulting to non-believers. To each his own, after all.

Just a general comment to everyone - we don't normally keep such a tight rein on what people dicuss here (illusion of freedom of speech, etc. ) but this has been a very explosive topic in this forum and people have previously shown themselves as being incapable of discussing it in a civilized manner, unfortunately.

This is a private forum at the end of the day - we reserve (and have) the right to lock any topic that we feel is not conducive to civilized discussion. I hope you can all respect this (even if you disagree with it).

Carry on everyone - but please do so more graciously this time. The SLIGHTEST sign of flaming/flamebaiting and it will be locked - you have all been warned. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 06-21-2002, 11:23 AM   #33
Memnoch
Ironworks Moderator
 

Join Date: February 28, 2001
Location: Boston/Sydney
Posts: 11,771
Let me go [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] for a sec.

Let me just post some points to consider in debating this issue, which seems to have been bandied around quite a bit in the last few days):


  • I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. This is the cornerstone around which the concept of freedom of speech is built, as long as it is done with respect for others
  • Debating at Ironworks is not about winning or losing, rather it's about expressing a point of view and listening to another person expressing theirs. There is no shame in agreeing to disagree when the argument starts to go nowhere.
  • Don't take things personally. Life's too short to get upset about another person's point of view.
  • If you can't handle people disagreeing with you, then don't get into a debate - you will not enjoy it and it will cause everyone problems.
  • A controversial viewpoint expressed politely, tactfully and respectfully will have a better chance of being accepted than a mainstream viewpoint expressed rudely and disrespectfully.
  • Remember that two of the most difficult things to do on the internet are: 1) admit that you can't change the other person's point of view; and 2) accept that failing to change the other person's point of view does NOT mean they are better than you.
  • Have the serenity to accept what you can not change, the courage to change that which you can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
  • There is nothing to be learned from enforced uniformity or vituperative argument. But the courteous exchange of differing ideas both enlightens and invigorates.
  • Don't know it all! - Ronn Bman
  • Be willing to learn from someone you're sure is wrong. - Ronn Bman
  • When in doubt about a person's intent, give them the benefit of the doubt. Rarely does someone actively seek to insult another.
  • Nothing is ever lost by walking away from a fight or a heated issue. You only lose when you lose control of yourself.
  • Treat others as you would have them treat your child: do not curse at, belittle, disrespect, or otherwise be mean-spirited. You are free to disagree, but you are not free to railroad someone else into agreeing with you.
  • Behind every name, there's a person. And behind every name, is an email address and IP, which can BOTH be banned.

Back on topic. Carry on - but with the above mantras in mind. Thank you for your cooperation. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 06-21-2002, 11:59 AM   #34
skywalker
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: VT, USA
Age: 63
Posts: 3,097
Sorry....Off Topic!

It amazes me how many times you need to post this Memnoch! I'm sure that newbees need to be told, but it seems even some of the oldest members fail to remember what you have posted!

I think it has to do with the passion of the subject at hand. I cannot understand why people on either side of this volatile subject are unable to let the "otherside" believe as they do. Every statement has to be taken personally.

Do we need to ban all discussion of such topics as Religion and Politics because we are too thin-skinned to see the whole issue? Gosh we almost had a knock down drag 'em out melee over Cats and Dogs yesterday.

This place seems very tense lately. I hope things calm down soon! [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Old 06-21-2002, 12:39 PM   #35
Cerek the Barbaric
Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice
 

Join Date: October 29, 2001
Location: North Carolina
Age: 61
Posts: 3,257
Yorick, you know how much I admire your passion in your faith. Let me just say that I don't think Oblivion was deliberately insulting. I made a post in the other thread concerning how each side perceives the comments made by the opposition. As has pointed out, passions run pretty high on both sides. We've both made comments that we felt were perfectly harmless, but others took offense at. Let's not jump to conclusions about a new member based on past actions or comments from other members.

Oblivion, as I said, I don't think you meant anything deragatory by your comments, but I do feel you made a poor choice of words. Religion in all flavors has been a hotly debated topic several times within the last several months. All the conversations got a little heated at times, but some managed to remain civil and respectful while others degenerated into a verbal mud-slinging contest with both sides making intentionally inflammatory remarks. THOSE threads were closed immediately by the Mods. Big Brother isn't watching, but you better believe that Memnoch, Sazerac, Mouse, and Ziroc ARE watching EVERY thread. So just be careful how you phrase your comments.

Well, I don't mean to be "mini-modding". I'm just asking BOTH sides to consider what your saying. Preview your Post before you Add it to see if you are really saying what you want to in the manner you want to.

BTW, Oblivion, you've got the right idea about using colors, but you're using the wrong commands. It should be typed like this...

< font color = "plum" > TEXT < /font >

And here is a website of all the official HTML colors...

HTML Color Chart
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Old 06-21-2002, 03:08 PM   #36
Yorick
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Thanks for the reminders Mario.
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Old 06-21-2002, 03:28 PM   #37
theifprowess
Drizzt Do'Urden
 

Join Date: March 9, 2002
Location: california
Posts: 613
IMO

people feel that strongly about a subject that that feel they have the right to argument it because they feel that strongly disaproves with anothers faith. if it gets heated enough it can and will start wars.

people fail to see that and i want to prove it. if people felt lightly about their religion. others who mock or question their faith arent as likely to get as pissed off.
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Old 06-21-2002, 07:03 PM   #38
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Quote:
Originally posted by theifprowess:
IMO

people feel that strongly about a subject that that feel they have the right to argument it because they feel that strongly disaproves with anothers faith. if it gets heated enough it can and will start wars.

people fail to see that and i want to prove it. if people felt lightly about their religion. others who mock or question their faith arent as likely to get as pissed off.
There is a world of difference between typing some words on an internet forum, and going to war and killing someone.

Name one war which started because people mocked their religion.
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Old 06-21-2002, 07:31 PM   #39
Oblivion437
Baaz Draconian
 

Join Date: June 17, 2002
Location: NY
Age: 37
Posts: 723
I didn't intend to insult, I'm saying that it's weak minded to refuse to acknowledge a point to existence without a diety, that's my opinion. I won't step down from that, nor will I be 'railroaded' in the manner you claim I am 'rail roading', by threatening to ban me! Fear is an effective tool of management, but NOT an effective tool to build positive sentiment.
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Old 06-21-2002, 07:36 PM   #40
John D Harris
Ninja Storm Shadow
 

Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
Posts: 3,577
First: I DO NOT FEEL ATTACKED (thanks Yorick, & Memnoch but no help is needed)
Second: This is for discusion purposes

If we crawled from the slime what good is morals, or ethics? They are but bioelectrical impluses that vary from Chem. pile to Chem. pile. Without an absolute morals & ethics are of little or no value to the whole of the chem. pile existance! All that has been achieved is the switching of one bioelectrical impulse, faith in a deity, for another, that is acceptable to the Chem. pile society. Who made the Chem pile society the authority? What right does one or many Chem. piles have to tell any other Chem. piles what is moral or ethical?
Because a group of Chem. piles get together and say so. Would you jump off a cliff because other Chem. piles did it? Where is the free will in that logic? Must all Chem piles conform to the will of chem. pile society? Why? What makes one set of bioelectrical impluses superior to another set of bioelectrical impulses? After all they are just bioelectrical impluses that have been created by chem. piles!

What good is the bioelectrical impluse of ethics or morals to the whole of Chem. pile society? Ethics and morals allow the weak and sick chem. piles of society to survive thus deluting the gene pool of Chem. pile society! Look at the rest of nature, do lion prides do that? Wolf packs? What about Hyenas? No they don't.

[ 06-21-2002, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]
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