Should Stem cell research be funded by the Government?

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: i see nothing wrong with this, as there is no such thing as a soul, an embryo cannot to my knowledge said to be alive on anything more than a celluler basis. so Cloneing is nothing wrong in itself for reasearch purposes, rather it is misuses of it that are wrong. But there is usually a knee-jerk "no" reaction

Dramnek_Ulk, Please prove to me that I have no soul.

Absynthe, if in fact no eggs are fertilized to create the material being cloned, then I might rescind my objections. But I'm still wary. Such things make criminal activity very lucrative. And the unscrupulous will make a buck in any way they can. sigh... this is a rough one and it will not be going away soon, I think. And thank you for the apology. You have always been a very civil and thoughtful debater and I have always had the greatest respect for you.

Moridin, who said I or others approve of the routine 'discarding' of those embryos and the very question: "is that 'life'"? is the one that begs all the discussing! *heavy sigh*

Where are you , Yorick? My poor 'philisophical/theological' skills need shoring up, my friend.

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 07-20-2001).]

In the year 2525

In the year 2525
If man is still alive
If woman can survive
They may find...

In the year 3535
Ain't gonna need to tell the truth, tell no lies
Everything you think, do, or say
Is in the pill you took today

In the year 4545
Ain't gonna need your teeth, won't need your eyes
You won't find a thing to do
Nobody's gonna look at you

In the year 5555
Your arms are hanging limp at your sides
Your legs not nothing to do
Some machine is doing that for you

In the year 6565
Ain't gonna need no husband, won't need no wife
You'll pick your son, pick your daughter too
From the bottom of a long black tube

In the year 7510
If God's a-comin' he ought to make it by then
Maybe he'll look around himself and say
Guess it's time for the Judgement day

In the year 8510
God's gonna shake his mighty head
He'll either say ``I'm pleased where man has been
Or tear it down and start again

In the year 9595
I'm kinda wondering if man's gonna be alive
He's taken everything this old earth can give
And he ain't put back nothing...

Now it's been 10,000 years
Man has cried a billion tears
For what he never knew
Now man's reign is through
But through the eternal night
The twinkling of starlight
So very far away
Maybe it's only yesterday...

Zager And Evans
Album : (Exordium And Terminus)

Gives Me Chills

Moni



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[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Moridin: Why is there the willingness to defend an embryo (something that could perhaps with a lot of imagination, be defined as a 'life') at the cost of a true human life. [/B]

Suppose we say that the fertilized egg is life. In my view Life=Life. I do not judge one more 'true' than another. Do you value lives differently, then? Is a five year old child's life worth more or less than a 50 year old's life? I don't mean for this to sound antagonistic, Moridin! I'm just not comfortable with the implications. I am assuming you don't think life begins at conception/fertilization so my question may be moot.

Sometimes this research is contradictory to one's beliefs, but would you still have the same objections if it was your life being saved by this stem cell research?

Yes. I would and do.


Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Jafin]

I'm for it because the stem cells are being taken from embryos and the embryos are just going to be discarded anyway. And as far as I am concerned, the embryo isn't a person yet. I don't personally believe that a person is a person until they are born. Also, my father has MS and stem cells could be the means in which MS is cured, so don't you think that I'd be for it?

Also, I am Christian and I'm not ashamed to admit it. That fact is a very imporant part of my life. However, I don't see how stem cell research really violates any of my beliefs. The embryos used are the ones left over from in-vitro fertilization and are just going to be discarded so why waste something will potentially save lives or improve them. Stem cell research is something with a lot of potential and I think it should be pursued.

-Jafin

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I am Jafin, arch-mage of the HADB clan!

[This message has been edited by Jafin (edited 07-21-2001).]

[Yorick]

Wasn't this question raised when the Nazis were conducting experiments on humans they deemed as worthless to save the lives they deemed as worth it. Isn't the fact that some regard the embryos enough of a concern to those that don't? It's not just a matter of what an individual thinks, but also what others think. We have to allow for the possiblity that we could be wrong.

What do we lose by not conducting the research? Slower advances in medicine. That's it. Same status quo, just a slower advance. The human race has survived and propogated without it.

What do we lose by conducting it? We risk the chance that the moral objectors are right, and that we are committing a horendous crime upon humans. We are also emotionally harming and disempowering a large section of the community that provide a safeguard for moral concern over human rights issues such as childcare, battered wife/child sheltering, care for the homeless and the poor etc.

**Here's a thought: Usually the death of a child is considered worse than the death of an elderly citizen because of the unrealised potential and the life experiences that were denied. How much more in the case of an embryo?**

The topic is a touchy one. Both sides have care for the Race at heart, but which side is damaged the most?

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 07-21-2001).]

Dramnek_Ulk, Please prove to me that I have no soul

Prove you do have a soul,
There is no evidence at all for the existence of what people would call a soul. If their is no evidence,it cannot be assumed to exist until there is evidence to prove otherwise.
belief or faith in an idea does not make it valid.

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Under the Banner

If I may butt in...
Well I know I have a soul!
Not anything believed through speculation but one seen and felt through death itself. No I was not hallucinating, I died for a short time.
I used to experiment in out of body experiences as well. There really is more to me than just a shell. Can't say it is true for all humans even though I think it is.
So there


Moni

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[Kinslayer]

At which point does a package of DNA or an embryo cease to become that and actually become a life? I know the argument would probably be when it is capable of conscious thought but plants aren't capable of that yet they are still alive. also, if you are declared medically "brain dead" you're also not capable of conscious thought but the idea of experimenting on someone in this condition is unacceptable. On the other hand could you tell the mother or father of a terminally ill child that you can do nothing because of this sort of moral argument? I'm normally very proud of my opinions and stubborn with it but this is an area that I really don't know which way to go on and I pity those who do have to decide policy on this sort of thing because it's a no win situation.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: Prove you do have a soul, There is no evidence at all for the existence of what people would call a soul. If their is no evidence,it cannot be assumed to exist until there is evidence to prove otherwise. belief or faith in an idea does not make it valid.

Dramnek, prove that you have love. There is no evidence at all for the existence of what people would call love. If there is no evidence, it cannot be assumed to exist until there is evidence to prove otherwise.
Belief or faith in an idea does not make it valid.

Actually Dramnek, belief and faith in an idea is exactly what makes it valid. If no human believes and has faith in an idea, it does not exist. An idea exists only in belief and faith - in the mind. It's called ABSTRACT THOUGHT.

I say I have a soul. It is up to you to prove otherwise. The onus of proof is on you for I have made my statement based on what I have experienced internally.
You say you do not have a soul. Do you see me arguing with you? You souless husk


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: Prove you do have a soul, There is no evidence at all for the existence of what people would call a soul. If their is no evidence,it cannot be assumed to exist until there is evidence to prove otherwise. belief or faith in an idea does not make it valid.

I actually have no physical evidence you exist at the moment. Computer programs can do postings too. I have no evidence air exists (sure scientists may but *I* do not) yet I breathe it and I believe those who tell me that's what I breathe to live.

You know five hundred years ago, nobody could prove air existed and it was thought that evil spirits made one sick. Is the fact that empirical proof (slides and microscope views et al) were not available to prove the existence of bacteria and viruses, proof that diseases were not caused by them then? Were diseases caused by evil spirits until we had proof that viruses and germs are responsible? Of course not! And the fact that we cannot draw a picture of a soul does not mean it doesn't exist. It means we are incapable of understanding it at this time. There are many things in this universe that we do not yet know about and every day new discoveries are made. Those things existed before man found them and I'm sure many of us would never have envisioned them but that doesn't make them invalid. I for one have never seen an atom or neutrino or a black hole. Do they exist? Well I'm willing to suspend my disbelief. Are you?

And sorry, but in this instance I believe you are wrong. My faith is enough for me. It is not enough for *you*, would be a more accurate comment, I think. Statements like yours do not change the the fact that my faith endures. Nor do they make me or others suddenly decide that you are right. All they do is make it crystal clear that there are a whole lot of differing views on the issue.

My point being, that while it is your opinion that there is no soul, you cannot prove to it my satisfaction. And I cannot prove it's existence to yours. Stalemate, I believe.

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."



[This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 07-21-2001).]