how does one improve thaco? and...

[Morgeruat]

THAC0 modifiers are a bit off, there is no modifier for 1PP, a -1 bonus for 2PP, -3 Bonus for 3PP (according to AD&D rules, for the game it may be -2) and a +2 penalty for weapons without PP's (for warriors)

I've posted example 6 below with corrections to illustrate this.

EXAMPLE 6: What happens if this guy meets a boat load of skeletons and decides to use a crushing weapon, like Mace (for which he has no PP)? His THAC0 deteriorates from 9 to 21 - 6 (+ 2 - 0) = 15(17) = 17. If he were in my party, he'd stick to using the sword. ESPECIALLY since one of his buddies, striving to thrive in the expansions by becoming a DC Fighter(12)/Cleric, is currently a CLVL 6 Fighter with THAC0 of about 15(9) in Mace; and another buddy, destined to be a DC Fighter(12)/Druid, is currently a CLVL 6 Fighter with about 15(10) in Flail!!

Example 5:

EXAMPLE 5: By the time the Fighter of Example 4 has advanced to CLVL 6 and acquired another PP, he should have at least a Long Bow (THAC0 +1) and may well have also acquired a Long Sword +2. If he stacks his PP in Bow, so as to have 3PP in Long Sword and 3 PP in Bow, he will have a THAC0 of 21 - 6 (- 3 - 2) = 15(10) in Long Sword, and 21 - 6 (- 3 - 1) = 15(11) in Bow. 10 and 11 are not bad at all.

Numbers were off by 1, still not to shabby.

[ 04-20-2005, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

[ister]

Originally posted by NobleNick: Midget Gems, Please excuse an unrepentant, unreformed power gamer. The chart is misleading only to those heretics who want to play a normal RPG. Anyone following the NobleNick school of power gaming will say, "versatility be damned;" then heap as many points into a weapon as possible and use that weapon.

The big drawback of doing so being that you often face enemies who have big immunities to (say) piercing damage. Rather than force a single character to handle these encounters it's nice to have a single PP in a crushing weapon. And, of course, this can be done without changing the time it take to reach 5 stars in your weapon of choice [img]smile.gif[/img]

I do like that the chart makes very clear that by level 5 or 6 a fighter with 10 dexterity is a MUCH better archer than a thief with 19 dexterity. Too many people don't realize that this is the case.

[NobleNick]

Morgeraut,

Like I said: I am not as strong on this subject as I wish I were. However, I adjusted for the fact that the THAC0 modifiers are -1, 0, 1 (instead of 0, 1, 2) for 0, 1 and 2 PP, respectively, by making the starting number 21 instead of 20.

I *THINK* the formulas I generated match the data in the chart; but, in any case, the numbers in the chart are correct. They are stats for actual characters created by me and verified in-game.

ister,

Yes, I see your point on weapon skill diversity. My problem is that I like having 2 DC Clerics in the party. The Clerics have to use crushing weapons; so why split the PP between two crushing weapons when you can be awesome with one? I typically have at least 4 DC warriors in a party, and at least 2 of them are restricted to crushing weapons. So I want the other 2 warriors to be VERY good with edged weapons (slashing damage) and bows (piercing damage). I have taken the road of TEAM weapon skill diversity: At least 2 warriors are excellent in each damage type. It usually works very well, since encounters with crushing-immune monsters are few, and encounters with slashing-immune monsters seem to be even rarer. A party with 4 DC warriors, 3 of whom are 5/3 PP in edged_weapon/Bow or crushing_weapon/Sling, and with the Bard singing War Chant, typically breezes through encounters that were designed to be extremely challenging to the 2-3 vanilla warrior party.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[ister]

I agree with your approach - get to 5 stars as soon as possible. However, each fighter gets an extra two stars to start with, and upon DC gets several more stars before reactivating the fighter. I prefer to use these stars to ensure that everyone has at least one star in a missile weapon and a crushing weapon. I don't much see the point in 3 stars in a secondary weapon. The only reason to ever use the secondary weapon is because the enemy has extreme immunity to the primary weapon. I'd rather have a diverse selection of secondary weapons for these specialized cases. The rest of the time my characters ought to be using their primary weapon.

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by NobleNick: Morgeraut, Like I said: I am not as strong on this subject as I wish I were. However, I adjusted for the fact that the THAC0 modifiers are -1, 0, 1 (instead of 0, 1, 2) for 0, 1 and 2 PP, respectively, by making the starting number 21 instead of 20. I *THINK* the formulas I generated match the data in the chart; but, in any case, the numbers in the chart are correct. They are stats for actual characters created by me and verified in-game.

You were right sort of, the base THAC0 for warrior classes (paladin's rangers and fighters) is 21 minus charlevel this is then modified by -2 for nonproficiency, 0 for 1PP, +1 for 2PP (as high a rangers and paladins go) +3 for 3PP (and no further to hit mods, OR it might be +2 at 3PP and +3 at 4PP like in BG2, I can't check this atm but I believe it is the first case)

In any case your numbers were only slightly off, and I congratulate you for your work in showing how things break down. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[SpongeLikeCow]

ApR for Ranger is single-handed weapon, no shield. If using shield (verified) or 2-handed weapon (not verified) subtract 1 ApR.

Rangers get the extra ApR with 2 handed weapons.

[NobleNick]

Originally posted by SpongeLikeCow: quote: ApR for Ranger is single-handed weapon, no shield. If using shield (verified) or 2-handed weapon (not verified) subtract 1 ApR.

Rangers get the extra ApR with 2 handed weapons. [/QUOTE]Really? I wouldn't have expected that. I have not played a Ranger with two-handed weapon (other than Bow or sling). Glad I put that "unverified" caveat into my reference material. I do that to differentiate between what I **KNOW** (because I've seen it in-game) and what I think I know, because I have relied on others or, much worse, my own memory of encounters long past.

I will change this in my reference material, and have to check it out some day. In the meantime, please don't take offense if you see the modified data still with the tag "unverified." I do the same to Dundee Slaytern, whom I think many would admit has the deepest reservoir of IWD knowledge on this board.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!