Is it France or Vichy France we have today?

[Night Stalker]

Awe come on Timber. You are a fierse debater and I enjoy your OpEds, but there is no need to get personal.

I mean, accusing Yorick of not having origional ideas? He's IWs Traveling Bard! He makes his living on his creativity! He's just standing up for friends. We don't like it when others on this board slag on America, we shouldn't resort to the same. Moirraine and Masklinn have never slagged off on America. They may have disagreed with policies, but they've never been offensive. They deserve the same courtesy.

Now I disagree with the stand the French gov has taken, and more importantly the less public reasons for that stance. But I do think that a number of posts (I'm not singling any out in particular) in this thread have bordered on Ad Hom against the French as a people.

Attack the topic, not the people. Stay cool. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Chewbacca]

Anyone catch the Time magazine Chirac interview? He certainly is not Anti-American as some right-wing Americans have claimed.

I am proud that we helped the French in the past and thankful the French helped us (can I be a diplomat or what?) and I respect the French stance on this issue as well as agree with it.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/maga...interview.html

[Davros]

Good post NightStalker - particularly that last paragraph. Good link Chewbacca - presents a more balanced view of life. Like NightStalker I have defended but not supported the views of the French government - that link of Chewbacca's makes me pause and think. Chirac recognised that there are most probably WOMD in Iraq and the matter needs to be dealt with. He also wishes Saddam were not there - his end results are not so different from Bush's - his means of achieving this are poles apart.

I am still think that without the US pressure from the build-up, Saddam would still be thumbing his nose at the world. Will be interesting to see how it all pans out, because at the end of the day it will the governments that do the deciding - no matter how big the peace or war rallies are in the streets.

[Sir Taliesin]

Even with the American pressure, I still think he is thumbing his nose at the world. Just exactly what have the Iraqi's done this week to prove they are complying? We've had one overflight of a U2 and Saddam signed a decree stat that importation of WoMD is illegal. Big whoop! ABCNEWS reported that nothing else has changed. The inspectors haven't been able to interview anymore Iraqi scientists alone, since the intial three a couple of weeks ago. Blix asked for specific documentation of where, how and who "destroyed" all the VX and biological weapons and the Iraqi's haven't given the first documents yet!

I hope that Blix orders the destruction of those missiles. Then we'll see if possibly he has turned any kind of new life! If the Iraqi's refuse then I think that will be a wake up call to the UN Securty Council. I don't even think France can ignore that!

[Wutang]

Actually ABCnews did a good cover story on the profile of Saddam Hussein last night.

Saddam grew up in an enviroment where he had an really abusive stepfather and a mother who really didn't care for him. His uncle raised him and brought him up to believe that he would be the greatest ruler the Middle East has ever seen.

The profiler (I forgot the name of the MD last night) also adds that all the abuse Saddam has taken in his early childhood, he's using the same abusive tactics to keep his people in line. He will brook no competition and will never let anyone abuse or be critical of him again.

The video at the ending showing Saddam smiling and smoking a cigar while reading the names of Iraqi congressmen to be executed is quite chilling.

So yes in some ways, the only reason Saddam is actually doing anything in these 12 years is that he has an American Army sitting now on his front door knocking threatening him.

UN sactions never worked and the UN never really could enforce much of anything from what I remember.

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by Wutang: So yes in some ways, the only reason Saddam is actually doing anything in these 12 years is that he has an American Army sitting now on his front door knocking threatening him. UN sactions never worked and the UN never really could enforce much of anything from what I remember.

I fail to see the logic in the jump from one sentence to the next. Wouldn't it be that he is doing something because he has a US army at his door AND that thanks to the UN he knows that there is a chance that he can avoid a war ?

'Cause if I was in his shoes and faced an inevitable war coming on, I think it would be truly foolish of me to disarm, wouldn't it ?

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Moiraine: Wouldn't it be that he is doing something because he has a US army at his door AND that thanks to the UN he knows that there is a chance that he can avoid a war ? 'Cause if I was in his shoes and faced an inevitable war coming on, I think it would be truly foolish of me to disarm, wouldn't it ?

I agree with the first of your statements. Not the second. Someone mentioned Crocidile Dundee ("That's not a knife, *this* is a knife") and it applies quite readily here. In the face of the US armed forces, what he has is a butter knife. Trying to hold onto it as a security blanket is a bit far-fetched, even for a maniacal madman with delusional tendancies. When you face a Bazooka, you should be smart enough to toss your pea-shooter on the ground in a show of goodwill. Remember, David and Goliath is a *myth*.

[Wutang]

Moiraine - Hmmm I must have missed a sentence when I posted that but I was trying to say that I just don't see Saddam caving into any UN mandates without a legitmate threat of force (or threat of war in this case) and the UN doesn't have much of a good track record on enforcing their resolutions.

I mean Somalia and Kosovo are just 2 recent examples of UN failures. Course another big UN mess is on the Israeli/Palestinian issue but that is another topic

And as for the possibility of Saddam disarming in face of overwhelming power, yes there's a remote chance still. But it's at least it's a small chance rather than no chance which was what was happening for the past 12 years.

[ 02-20-2003, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Wutang ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Remember, David and Goliath is a *myth*.

Says who? You can't use a controversial offtopic point like that Timber. David was a factual King of Israel and an accomplished musician with a compelling legacy of lyrical work left behind. A historical persona proven to exist.

Goliath was a very large and physically powerful champion of an opposing army. The incident you are writng off as a myth was what brought David into the public eye. Catapaulted him from being an unknown shepherd to the military genius that eventually forged Israel's largest territorial gains to date.

It's like me using a line like "remember evolution is a myth" in an argument about creativity. It doesn't hold water if it's a contentious point in itself.

[ 02-21-2003, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Quote: Originally posted by Moiraine: Wouldn't it be that he is doing something because he has a US army at his door AND that thanks to the UN he knows that there is a chance that he can avoid a war ? 'Cause if I was in his shoes and faced an inevitable war coming on, I think it would be truly foolish of me to disarm, wouldn't it ?

I agree with the first of your statements. Not the second. Someone mentioned Crocidile Dundee ("That's not a knife, *this* is a knife") and it applies quite readily here. In the face of the US armed forces, what he has is a butter knife. Trying to hold onto it as a security blanket is a bit far-fetched, even for a maniacal madman with delusional tendancies. When you face a Bazooka, you should be smart enough to toss your pea-shooter on the ground in a show of goodwill. Remember, David and Goliath is a *myth*.[/QUOTE]Also you're ignoring the Islamic mindset entirely: Martyrdom being the only assurance of salvation found in the Qu'ran and Hadith. You applying western rationale to an Islamic worldview. YOU might toss your peashooter on the ground. A person who sees their death in such a battle as the way to paradise would not. In dying they win.