USA Part 2 (continued)

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Just look at all the people in prision in America! We are #1! We have the most criminals in the world!!! Whoo Hoo! America's #1!!!! No, we just have a larger percentage of them in prison Beyond who ever is in the revolving door of the president, we have a big problem. The drug war. Ironicly Afganistan has a record crop of poppy this year, thanks to the removal of the Talibon. 30 years and America is still losing the drug war. Maybe we will never learn? And now Mr Bush wants to ease logging restrictions, under the guise of preventing forest fires. Hmmm, I wonder how much timber $$$ fills his and other republican war chests.... Logging and clearing is a legitimate way of lessening the impacts of the wild fires. Over and over again this year alone we have seen what the conservationists have wrought. The fires spread unchecked because theyhave huge amounts of fuel. At least by opening things up for the timber companies we can require they clear brush and construct firebreaks. Logging is not a major problem since trees grow back and young fast growing trees soak up more carbon dioxide by far than do old growth trees and they emit more oxygen. So wether there is PAC money involved or not, the idea is legitimate. Not to mention Bush's endorsment of the California GOP candidate for govenor, the guy who is under investigation for dirty business and who's company has already been charged a huge fine for ethics violations. Can you say the guys opponent is an honest upstanding citizen with no political or criminal ties to nasty elements? Oh and by the way..under investigation means he is innocent untill proven guilty! I guess two months of preaching corporate responsibility is enough to balance that out. I smell a hypocrite who thinks I am as stupid as he is...Thats my Bush! I think you are entirely too biased against him to claim to be a fair judge...just as I am on the other end of the spectrum [img]smile.gif[/img] Sheesh, I dont need "bushbashing" website to know something aint right in Texas, I just need to watch the news.

This would be the same news that reports that "Rumsfeld Blasted by Secret Court" over actions taken by the Clinton Administration and Janet Reno?

Hehehe guess once again we are on opposite sides of the aisle [img]smile.gif[/img] ahhh well take it easy dude. I agree at least that the Drug War is a waste of effort. I say let the addicts buy all they want and when they OD let them die. As for less lethal drugs, I think what you smoke in your own home is your business, however I think employers have the right to choose who they hire and do not hire.

Originally posted by MagiK: Hehehe It isn't all that important Moni [img]smile.gif[/img] If you find he did have a C average it really doesnt change anything for you or for me. You hatehim, I don't. I respect his accomplishment of becoming a Fighter Pilot (probably means more to me, since that is something I could never accomplish and wished I could) and you do not. You see him as a typical politician as crooked as any, I don't.....I still like you [img]smile.gif[/img]

Just because I think he is the most inappropriate choice, er, excuse me, appointee, as president in the history of this country should, in no way, be misconstrued as hate for the man.
I don't hate anybody.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: Just look at all the people in prision in America! We are #1! We have the most criminals in the world!!! Whoo Hoo! America's #1!!!! No, we just have a larger percentage of them in prison Beyond who ever is in the revolving door of the president, we have a big problem. The drug war. Ironicly Afganistan has a record crop of poppy this year, thanks to the removal of the Talibon. 30 years and America is still losing the drug war. Maybe we will never learn? And now Mr Bush wants to ease logging restrictions, under the guise of preventing forest fires. Hmmm, I wonder how much timber $$$ fills his and other republican war chests.... Logging and clearing is a legitimate way of lessening the impacts of the wild fires. Over and over again this year alone we have seen what the conservationists have wrought. The fires spread unchecked because theyhave huge amounts of fuel. At least by opening things up for the timber companies we can require they clear brush and construct firebreaks. Logging is not a major problem since trees grow back and young fast growing trees soak up more carbon dioxide by far than do old growth trees and they emit more oxygen. So wether there is PAC money involved or not, the idea is legitimate. Not to mention Bush's endorsment of the California GOP candidate for govenor, the guy who is under investigation for dirty business and who's company has already been charged a huge fine for ethics violations. Can you say the guys opponent is an honest upstanding citizen with no political or criminal ties to nasty elements? Oh and by the way..under investigation means he is innocent untill proven guilty! I guess two months of preaching corporate responsibility is enough to balance that out. I smell a hypocrite who thinks I am as stupid as he is...Thats my Bush! I think you are entirely too biased against him to claim to be a fair judge...just as I am on the other end of the spectrum [img]smile.gif[/img] Sheesh, I dont need "bushbashing" website to know something aint right in Texas, I just need to watch the news.

This would be the same news that reports that "Rumsfeld Blasted by Secret Court" over actions taken by the Clinton Administration and Janet Reno?

Hehehe guess once again we are on opposite sides of the aisle [img]smile.gif[/img] ahhh well take it easy dude. I agree at least that the Drug War is a waste of effort. I say let the addicts buy all they want and when they OD let them die. As for less lethal drugs, I think what you smoke in your own home is your business, however I think employers have the right to choose who they hire and do not hire.[/QUOTE]Actually I watch Fox, CNN, and NENC (new england news channel), as well as read time and newsweek...not to mention a few local and national rags and rueters on the web [img]smile.gif[/img] The only unbiased news source is all of them combined!

The proposed logging deregulation would lend incredible opportunity for mismanagemnt. Say bye-bye to old growth forests! See ya later mr. spotted owl.

A better solution would begin with homeowners in fire-prone areas keeping their property clear of combustibles. Forest fires are supposed to happen, it natures order.

Regardless we have the technology to replace timber goods with biomass goods. Hemp and soybean make better, cheaper paper and building materials anyway. Only the $$$ and the political connections keep logging alive.

And I'm quite taken it easy! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Actually I watch Fox, CNN, and NENC (new england news channel), as well as read time and newsweek...not to mention a few local and national rags and rueters on the web [img]smile.gif[/img] The only unbiased news source is all of them combined! I agree 100% but would also add a couple of off continent sources as well [img]smile.gif[/img] The proposed logging deregulation would lend incredible opportunity for mismanagemnt. Say bye-bye to old growth forests! See ya later mr. spotted owl. Old growth timber is over rated (young fast growing trees are more efficient at scrubbing the atmosphere) and as for Spotted Owls, any species that cannot survive a location shift of 10 or 20 miles is doomed to extinction anyway and not worth worrying about. All it would take is a volcanic erruption in the area (a real possibility) or a really bad storm and they would be wiped out anyway. From what I have read about spotted owls they arent worth the hoopla that people make of them A better solution would begin with homeowners in fire-prone areas keeping their property clear of combustibles. Forest fires are supposed to happen, it natures order. Also a good idea too Regardless we have the technology to replace timber goods with biomass goods. Hemp and soybean make better, cheaper paper and building materials anyway. Only the $$$ and the political connections keep logging alive. Better solutions maybe, cheaper no, I know for a fact that if there were a cheaper resource those would be exploited in a heartbeat. Hemp is not used for rope now not just because it can be smoked, Nylon and other fibers are much better and more easily produced. Logging is not one of the more politicly influential PACS down here in DC. Yes they have a voice but they arent all powerful. And I'm quite taken it easy! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by MagiK: as for Spotted Owls, any species that cannot survive a location shift of 10 or 20 miles is doomed to extinction anyway and not worth worrying about. All it would take is a volcanic erruption in the area (a real possibility) or a really bad storm and they would be wiped out anyway. From what I have read about spotted owls they arent worth the hoopla that people make of them

Good Lord, that is callous! Aren't you glad that those policies don't directly affect you? (Ah, screw MagiK...so what if the Ironworks community thinks he is a good guy, we want to do this and it is going to wipe him out! Big f*cking deal, its more money in our pocket to go ahead and do it! F*ck him!)

[img]graemlins/1dizzy.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Moni: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: as for Spotted Owls, any species that cannot survive a location shift of 10 or 20 miles is doomed to extinction anyway and not worth worrying about. All it would take is a volcanic erruption in the area (a real possibility) or a really bad storm and they would be wiped out anyway. From what I have read about spotted owls they arent worth the hoopla that people make of them

Good Lord, that is callous! Aren't you glad that those policies don't directly affect you? (Ah, screw MagiK...so what if the Ironworks community thinks he is a good guy, we want to do this and it is going to wipe him out! Big f*cking deal, its more money in our pocket to go ahead and do it! F*ck him!)

[img]graemlins/1dizzy.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Umm no not callous at all, I think it is realistic. First off I would point out that a Human Being is not comparable to a Spotted owl. (though I do know some here think animals are more important than any human) secondly it is a fact of nature that weak species that are incapable of adapting to changing environments die. I love and respect wildlife for what it is, but I do not condone endangering humans to preserve a species that cannot survive outside a 200square mile of land. Many humans have been injured and maimed by radical conservationists who spike trees and sabotage equipment all in the name of protecting the hallowed Spotted Owl. Maybe my upbringing in a rural setting where people are seen as important and animals are not given primacy colors my thinking. All I know is that the world looses species every day and has done so since the beginning of life, the Spotted Owl is not all that important if it cant live accross the street in a younger tree.

Warning!! miscelaneous rambling follows!!!!

I will also point out that the Scientist who was first quoted as Saying "X number of millions of species die every day due to the depradations of man" cannot even name a single species of that X number of millions...why? because he is basing his numbers on a theoretical mathamatical model that he devised and bears no relation to reality, just to his theoretical mathematical model.

Umm that was more than you really wanted to hear I think [img]smile.gif[/img] Anyway Im not callous and I would never cause any anmal I come into contact with to suffer needlessly. If I kill for food, I do so in as quick and sure a manner as technology and skill allows.

[ 08-25-2002, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Chewbacca]

What about wolves, mnt lions, racoon ,possums, or any forest dweller that is diplaced due to heavy logging? Older trees are prized by loggers, better wood and more of it! Older trees are prized by wildlife, better homes and more of it!
Its the balance of nature in general for the forest that is threatened by de-regulated logging. Our most beautiful and rich forests are old-growth.

And as for biomass not being cheaper...do some homework. If its not cheaper it because its not being used. The best biomass raw material (hemp) is illegal to grow and damn expensive to import. Its more expensive because politicians want to protect their cash cows, among them is the timber industry. If biomass had the political clout and infrastructure that lumber has, it not only would be cheaper, but far far far far far far far more renewable.

Originally posted by MagiK: Umm no not callous at all, I think it is realistic. First off I would point out that a Human Being is not comparable to a Spotted owl.

I would have believed you were truly being realistic but then I read the following sentence LOL.
No, I do understand about the adaptation of species to their environments but when we expect them to adapt to ours, IMO that is overstepping boundaries.

[Attalus]

Actually, most paper, etc., is made from quick-growing pine trees that are grown as a cash crop like corn. The older hardwoods are used in other areas. And, after the horrific fires in Colorado this summer, does anybody really doubt that present forestry practices are adequate?

[Kaltia]

Originally posted by Moni: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Umm no not callous at all, I think it is realistic. First off I would point out that a Human Being is not comparable to a Spotted owl.

I would have believed you were truly being realistic but then I read the following sentence LOL.
No, I do understand about the adaptation of species to their environments but when we expect them to adapt to ours, IMO that is overstepping boundaries.[/QUOTE]Like fossils fuels, animal species are irreplaceable. it's that attitude, that if they can't survive in cities or whatever then they're weak, that does the most damage.