Whats the point? - Page 6

Silver Cheetah · 12-05-2001, 03:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Uhh and just to be provocative and generally a pain in the arse...here is a thought....

Say you successfully boycot that swoosh brand coffee maker that is assembled in some third world country by people makeing less than a western countries minimum wage (but still nearly a living wage in that country) and that big evil multi-national corporation decides to shrink its operation and lays off those poor oppressed people who then have NO source of income and no where to go to earn an income...and have no way to support themselves...then what?

No MagiK, they do not merely get paid less than a Western country's minimum wage. The workers Barry and I have been talking about get paid less than the mimimum wage in their own countries, sometimes they get paid no wage at all (slave/prison labour) - I'm starting to get really mad now.

There is also abuse in the area of working hours, sexual abuse, disallowal of women's right to become pregnant and have children, child sweatshop labour (it still goes on) no right to refuse to work overtime, no right to strike, no right to complain. Complaints are met with punishment, generally instant dismissal.

Look MagiK, PLEASE go and find out about conditions in .... Export Processing Zones, RIGHT NOW. (It's a place to start). Go and type out Export Processing Zones on your internet search engines.

When you have found out about the issues we are dealing with here, then I will continue to debate with you on this matter.

From what you say, it is clear that you known nothing about what goes on, and you are not listening to a word I am saying on the subject!!

One of the main things that activism tries to do is get companies to pay a living wage (in the country in question). So that people will be able to eat adequately. Also to get working hours down to what the human body can stand. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I have said all this before. You aren't listening!!!

Silver Cheetah · 12-05-2001, 03:57 PM

Labor Costs 11 Cents, The Sweatshirt $22.99

How long would it take you to stitch a shoulder seam? If you're making a kid-size Nike sweatshirt in the Dominican Republic, it better not take you more than 30.35 seconds. That's half a minute. For both shoulders.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"We found these documents in a garbage dump in the Dominican Republic," grins Charlie Kernaghan, America's leading anti-sweatshop activist, as we chat at the Niketown on E. 57th St. "They were too stupid to shred 'em."

"These documents" are Nike's SAM requirements — Standard Allotted Minutes. For every step of every item, Nike has calculated how much time it will allow, to the 1,000th of a second. The grand total from start to finish — raw cloth to stitched, labeled and bagged kiddie sweatshirt? It's 6.6 minutes.

Given that Dominican sweatshop wages are about 70 cents an hour, the labor on that shirt cost about 11 cents. The cost of it to you, at Macy's, is $22.99.

Go ahead and gulp. This gaping disparity explains why the fight against overseas sweatshops — particularly market-leader Nike's — has become the biggest civil rights movement on American campuses.

In the past few years, college kids have agitated their universities to stop allowing Nike to manufacture their official college apparel till the company cleans up its act. This led to some reforms, including a Nike Web site — Nikebiz.com — that finally discloses where its contractors are based around the world.

Armed with this list, college students have been visiting these far-flung factories to examine worker conditions.

Over spring break, New York University student Katie Griffiths went down to a big Nike contractor (Nike doesn't own any factories, it just hires them) in Puebla, Mexico. A few months ago, the workers there had staged a walkout, initially spurred by rancid meat in the cafeteria.

But the workers were protesting more than just maggots. They wanted the right to organize and a raise beyond their $4 or $5 a day. They were fired, en masse.

Under pressure from the student groups, however, the young women eventually were hired back. ("About 85% of all sweatshop workers are women my age," notes Griffiths, 19). "And the factory has a new catering contract," says Nike spokesman Vada Manager.

But Mexico isn't even the most abysmal country when it comes to making Nike's clothing — and, for the record, many similar retailers', including Reebok, Fila and Adidas.

"Nike jumps from country to country in search of low wages," says Kernaghan. "For example, they've got tens of thousands [of workers] in Cambodia, where wages are 19 cents an hour. In China, it's 20 to 25 cents."

Nike's Manager contends these are great wages. But he also admits that a 60-hour workweek is not uncommon. "A workweek cannot exceed that without workers' consent," he says.

And labor is but a small fraction of his goods' cost — 4%, he estimates. But in fact, the 11 cents it took to make that kiddie sweatshirt is less than 1% of the retail cost.

Why couldn't Nike pay 22 cents for that sweatshirt and double its workers' wages? Manager contends this would lead to disaster — for the workers! "If you exponentially increase labor costs, that impacts on the cost of production, which then means the retail cost may increase, which then reduces the amount of [items] sold" — and leads to worker layoffs. But I don't think an extra 11 cents would keep anyone from buying a shirt, do you?

The only way to get Nike to change is to demand it. A boycott isn't the answer — that really could lead to layoffs, warns Kernaghan. But letters and e-mails to CEO Phil Knight, who's worth $4.1 billion, would let Nike know its swoosh is becoming synonymous with "sweatshop."

Silver Cheetah · 12-05-2001, 04:03 PM

How Asia's Export Zones Abuse Women

"If these conditions continue, these women will be physically as well as psychologically worn out in just 5-10 years. These women will suffer from premature old age, disappointment, and unhappiness, regardless of the noble ideal of equality of men and women in the development of the globalized world promoted at the 4th International Women's Conference in Beijing."

That paragraph summarizes the plight of women, mostly from 18 to 25 years of age, working in foreign-owned factories in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. The analysis comes not from a human rights organization but from a Vietnamese academic, Professor Bui Thi Kim Quy, of the Center for Women's Studies at the Institute of Social Sciences in Ho Chi Minh City. In a chapter of a new book published in Hong Kong, Professor Bui reports on her interviews with workers in the Ho Chi Minh City area. Here are some of her findings:

The women work "in an environment where the levels of noise, dust, heat, humidity, and even poisonous chemicals exceed the allowable limit." As a result of such conditions, and excessively long hours (extending up to seven days a week month after month), some women have suffered severe weight loss after only six months of work.

"In their contact with employer's representatives (foreign supervisors and technical experts)...a number of women workers are cruelly treated, dismissed, forced to change jobs, or quit."

Vietnam's labor laws and regulations are widely ignored. Sometimes workers come under pressure "to vote for a Vietnamese factory management as chairman of the union."

When Vietnam first set up its Export Processing Zones, the jobs there were more attractive than those in government-run businesses. Now there is "a trend of workers quitting jobs at foreign-invested enterprises and returning to jobs at state-run businesses," partly because the latter have better fringe benefits.

Barry the Sprout · 12-05-2001, 05:41 PM

MagiK - it seems like were picking on you but we're not! Trust me.

You asked about the Bacardi thing, that is all.

Bacardi are quite DEFINATELY a major source of terrorism in the world today. The reason you don't hear that much about it is because it is against Cubans - so people don't really care all that much. They fund a group called the Cuban American National Foundation. The miami exiles basically. I am personally pro the current cuban government but it doesn't really matter if you are or not. The CANF basically try to overthrow the government by blowing up hotels and aeroplanes.

25 years ago they blew up a passenger aircraft with the Cuban fencing team (?!?) on it. That killed 73 people - they deliberatley placed the explosives so that it would be impossible to land the aircraft safely even if the blast didn't destroy it. The www.boycottbacardi.com website has a lot more info as well on this kind of thing.

The other nice piece of work they have done is connected to the cuban rival company Havana Club. Havana Club markets products through Pernod Ricard and Bacardi are in direct competition for a lot of their markets. A few years back Bacardi lobbied the American government to include on budget legislation a clause that allowed them to use Havan Club's trademark in the US. In an attempt to drive them out of the market they have actually contravened just about every international trade law in operation. As such they are at present being investigated here in Europe.

Also the Bacardi company lawyer drafted sections of the Helms-Burton act which tightens the blockade of Cuba to such an extent that no ship can go into an American port within six months of having been in a cuban one, (this is by no means the end of it - it is a big act, but that is the most ludicrous part of it that I could remember). This act has been condemned by the UN every year since it was passed.

Barry the Sprout · 12-06-2001, 05:36 AM

Little bump because I want people to read the above. You never know...

Yorick · 12-06-2001, 01:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Donut:

There's no need for this kind of language.

Aha!

But it was "thingy", not "thingyy".

How did you know?

12-06-2001, 01:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
MagiK - it seems like were picking on you but we're not! Trust me.

I don't feel picked on and I fully intend to reply to SC's posts, unfortunately Thursdays are just too busy to allow me to do so right now. I have wall to wall business meetings untill it is time for me to leave work for school and then Im there till nearly 10 sooooooo
Tomorrow I shall attempt to reply. Silver and I disagree about a lot of things but she and I understand that the other is still a human being and I believe we at least can respect that one fact. Beside I learn from her I already know a lot of what she has stated there and have a different view on the issues...but she does put out info that is hard to get in other ways. I can only hope that she doesnt discount everything I say out of hand...well she actually said she agreed with me on a couple of things so I can't be too awful [img]smile.gif[/img]

Pax

P.S. Re the bacardi thing, first off, Problems in Cuba on a world wide scale are pretty insignificant to the rest of the world, second, I think Cubans have at least one issue way more serious than Barcardi to deal with. Not saying its right or proper...just putting things into a more global perspective.

Russ · 12-06-2001, 01:40 PM

Um, no offense, but how is getting rid of Bacardi in a bar making the world a better place? I'm a southwest-american libertarian, which isn't really right or left wing. I will occasionally boycott things: my wife and I agree on diamonds, for example. But ...

well, I don't want to irritate you. I just don't get it.

Silver Cheetah · 12-06-2001, 01:43 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MagiK:
[QB]

I don't feel picked on and I fully intend to reply to SC's posts, unfortunately Thursdays are just too busy to allow me to do so right now. I have wall to wall business meetings untill it is time for me to leave work for school and then Im there till nearly 10 sooooooo
Tomorrow I shall attempt to reply. Silver and I disagree about a lot of things but she and I understand that the other is still a human being and I believe we at least can respect that one fact. Beside I learn from her I already know a lot of what she has stated there and have a different view on the issues...but she does put out info that is hard to get in other ways. I can only hope that she doesnt discount everything I say out of hand...well she actually said she agreed with me on a couple of things so I can't be too awful [img]smile.gif[/img]

MagiK, just wanted to say 'sorry' - got a little heated back there. You obviously haven't taken it the wrong way, - thanks! *hug* .

And no, I don't discount everything you say! We have very different world views, as I think I said to you once before, and so sometimes it can be pretty hard to connect, - frustrating for both of us, I guess.

But we're trying!! [img]smile.gif[/img] And we'll keep on trying, right, dude?

Bahamut · 12-06-2001, 01:44 PM

well keep doing what you are doing, we can all contribute little for we cannot change the world in one day. we may die not even feeling fulfilled because of it, but it will help someday. their loss.

12-05-2001, 03:27 PM	#51
Silver Cheetah Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 1,781	quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Uhh and just to be provocative and generally a pain in the arse...here is a thought.... Say you successfully boycot that swoosh brand coffee maker that is assembled in some third world country by people makeing less than a western countries minimum wage (but still nearly a living wage in that country) and that big evil multi-national corporation decides to shrink its operation and lays off those poor oppressed people who then have NO source of income and no where to go to earn an income...and have no way to support themselves...then what? No MagiK, they do not merely get paid less than a Western country's minimum wage. The workers Barry and I have been talking about get paid less than the mimimum wage in their own countries, sometimes they get paid no wage at all (slave/prison labour) - I'm starting to get really mad now. There is also abuse in the area of working hours, sexual abuse, disallowal of women's right to become pregnant and have children, child sweatshop labour (it still goes on) no right to refuse to work overtime, no right to strike, no right to complain. Complaints are met with punishment, generally instant dismissal. Look MagiK, PLEASE go and find out about conditions in .... Export Processing Zones, RIGHT NOW. (It's a place to start). Go and type out Export Processing Zones on your internet search engines. When you have found out about the issues we are dealing with here, then I will continue to debate with you on this matter. From what you say, it is clear that you known nothing about what goes on, and you are not listening to a word I am saying on the subject!! One of the main things that activism tries to do is get companies to pay a living wage (in the country in question). So that people will be able to eat adequately. Also to get working hours down to what the human body can stand. Etc. Etc. Etc. I have said all this before. You aren't listening!!! __________________

12-05-2001, 03:57 PM	#52
Silver Cheetah Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 1,781	Labor Costs 11 Cents, The Sweatshirt $22.99 How long would it take you to stitch a shoulder seam? If you're making a kid-size Nike sweatshirt in the Dominican Republic, it better not take you more than 30.35 seconds. That's half a minute. For both shoulders. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "We found these documents in a garbage dump in the Dominican Republic," grins Charlie Kernaghan, America's leading anti-sweatshop activist, as we chat at the Niketown on E. 57th St. "They were too stupid to shred 'em." "These documents" are Nike's SAM requirements — Standard Allotted Minutes. For every step of every item, Nike has calculated how much time it will allow, to the 1,000th of a second. The grand total from start to finish — raw cloth to stitched, labeled and bagged kiddie sweatshirt? It's 6.6 minutes. Given that Dominican sweatshop wages are about 70 cents an hour, the labor on that shirt cost about 11 cents. The cost of it to you, at Macy's, is $22.99. Go ahead and gulp. This gaping disparity explains why the fight against overseas sweatshops — particularly market-leader Nike's — has become the biggest civil rights movement on American campuses. In the past few years, college kids have agitated their universities to stop allowing Nike to manufacture their official college apparel till the company cleans up its act. This led to some reforms, including a Nike Web site — Nikebiz.com — that finally discloses where its contractors are based around the world. Armed with this list, college students have been visiting these far-flung factories to examine worker conditions. Over spring break, New York University student Katie Griffiths went down to a big Nike contractor (Nike doesn't own any factories, it just hires them) in Puebla, Mexico. A few months ago, the workers there had staged a walkout, initially spurred by rancid meat in the cafeteria. But the workers were protesting more than just maggots. They wanted the right to organize and a raise beyond their $4 or $5 a day. They were fired, en masse. Under pressure from the student groups, however, the young women eventually were hired back. ("About 85% of all sweatshop workers are women my age," notes Griffiths, 19). "And the factory has a new catering contract," says Nike spokesman Vada Manager. But Mexico isn't even the most abysmal country when it comes to making Nike's clothing — and, for the record, many similar retailers', including Reebok, Fila and Adidas. "Nike jumps from country to country in search of low wages," says Kernaghan. "For example, they've got tens of thousands [of workers] in Cambodia, where wages are 19 cents an hour. In China, it's 20 to 25 cents." Nike's Manager contends these are great wages. But he also admits that a 60-hour workweek is not uncommon. "A workweek cannot exceed that without workers' consent," he says. And labor is but a small fraction of his goods' cost — 4%, he estimates. But in fact, the 11 cents it took to make that kiddie sweatshirt is less than 1% of the retail cost. Why couldn't Nike pay 22 cents for that sweatshirt and double its workers' wages? Manager contends this would lead to disaster — for the workers! "If you exponentially increase labor costs, that impacts on the cost of production, which then means the retail cost may increase, which then reduces the amount of [items] sold" — and leads to worker layoffs. But I don't think an extra 11 cents would keep anyone from buying a shirt, do you? The only way to get Nike to change is to demand it. A boycott isn't the answer — that really could lead to layoffs, warns Kernaghan. But letters and e-mails to CEO Phil Knight, who's worth $4.1 billion, would let Nike know its swoosh is becoming synonymous with "sweatshop." __________________

12-05-2001, 04:03 PM	#53
Silver Cheetah Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 1,781	How Asia's Export Zones Abuse Women "If these conditions continue, these women will be physically as well as psychologically worn out in just 5-10 years. These women will suffer from premature old age, disappointment, and unhappiness, regardless of the noble ideal of equality of men and women in the development of the globalized world promoted at the 4th International Women's Conference in Beijing." That paragraph summarizes the plight of women, mostly from 18 to 25 years of age, working in foreign-owned factories in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. The analysis comes not from a human rights organization but from a Vietnamese academic, Professor Bui Thi Kim Quy, of the Center for Women's Studies at the Institute of Social Sciences in Ho Chi Minh City. In a chapter of a new book published in Hong Kong, Professor Bui reports on her interviews with workers in the Ho Chi Minh City area. Here are some of her findings: The women work "in an environment where the levels of noise, dust, heat, humidity, and even poisonous chemicals exceed the allowable limit." As a result of such conditions, and excessively long hours (extending up to seven days a week month after month), some women have suffered severe weight loss after only six months of work. "In their contact with employer's representatives (foreign supervisors and technical experts)...a number of women workers are cruelly treated, dismissed, forced to change jobs, or quit." Vietnam's labor laws and regulations are widely ignored. Sometimes workers come under pressure "to vote for a Vietnamese factory management as chairman of the union." When Vietnam first set up its Export Processing Zones, the jobs there were more attractive than those in government-run businesses. Now there is "a trend of workers quitting jobs at foreign-invested enterprises and returning to jobs at state-run businesses," partly because the latter have better fringe benefits. __________________

12-06-2001, 05:36 AM	#55
Barry the Sprout White Dragon Join Date: October 19, 2001 Location: York, UK. Age: 42 Posts: 1,815	Little bump because I want people to read the above. You never know... __________________ [img]\"http://img1.ranchoweb.com/images/sproutman/certwist.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br /><i>\"And the angels all pallid and wan,<br />Uprising, unveiling, affirm,<br />That the play is the tragedy, man,<br />And its hero the Conquerer Worm.\"</i><br /> - Edgar Allan Poe

12-06-2001, 01:07 PM	#56
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 53 Posts: 9,246	quote: Originally posted by Donut: There's no need for this kind of language. Aha! But it was "thingy", not "thingyy". How did you know? __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

12-05-2001, 05:41 PM	#54
Barry the Sprout White Dragon Join Date: October 19, 2001 Location: York, UK. Age: 42 Posts: 1,815	MagiK - it seems like were picking on you but we're not! Trust me. You asked about the Bacardi thing, that is all. Bacardi are quite DEFINATELY a major source of terrorism in the world today. The reason you don't hear that much about it is because it is against Cubans - so people don't really care all that much. They fund a group called the Cuban American National Foundation. The miami exiles basically. I am personally pro the current cuban government but it doesn't really matter if you are or not. The CANF basically try to overthrow the government by blowing up hotels and aeroplanes. 25 years ago they blew up a passenger aircraft with the Cuban fencing team (?!?) on it. That killed 73 people - they deliberatley placed the explosives so that it would be impossible to land the aircraft safely even if the blast didn't destroy it. The www.boycottbacardi.com website has a lot more info as well on this kind of thing. The other nice piece of work they have done is connected to the cuban rival company Havana Club. Havana Club markets products through Pernod Ricard and Bacardi are in direct competition for a lot of their markets. A few years back Bacardi lobbied the American government to include on budget legislation a clause that allowed them to use Havan Club's trademark in the US. In an attempt to drive them out of the market they have actually contravened just about every international trade law in operation. As such they are at present being investigated here in Europe. Also the Bacardi company lawyer drafted sections of the Helms-Burton act which tightens the blockade of Cuba to such an extent that no ship can go into an American port within six months of having been in a cuban one, (this is by no means the end of it - it is a big act, but that is the most ludicrous part of it that I could remember). This act has been condemned by the UN every year since it was passed.

12-06-2001, 01:30 PM	#57
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: MagiK - it seems like were picking on you but we're not! Trust me. I don't feel picked on and I fully intend to reply to SC's posts, unfortunately Thursdays are just too busy to allow me to do so right now. I have wall to wall business meetings untill it is time for me to leave work for school and then Im there till nearly 10 sooooooo Tomorrow I shall attempt to reply. Silver and I disagree about a lot of things but she and I understand that the other is still a human being and I believe we at least can respect that one fact. Beside I learn from her I already know a lot of what she has stated there and have a different view on the issues...but she does put out info that is hard to get in other ways. I can only hope that she doesnt discount everything I say out of hand...well she actually said she agreed with me on a couple of things so I can't be too awful [img]smile.gif[/img] Pax P.S. Re the bacardi thing, first off, Problems in Cuba on a world wide scale are pretty insignificant to the rest of the world, second, I think Cubans have at least one issue way more serious than Barcardi to deal with. Not saying its right or proper...just putting things into a more global perspective.

12-06-2001, 01:40 PM	#58
Russ Manshoon Join Date: November 9, 2001 Location: Texas, baby! Posts: 163	Um, no offense, but how is getting rid of Bacardi in a bar making the world a better place? I'm a southwest-american libertarian, which isn't really right or left wing. I will occasionally boycott things: my wife and I agree on diamonds, for example. But ... well, I don't want to irritate you. I just don't get it. __________________ --What? What will come out no more, huh?

12-06-2001, 01:43 PM	#59
Silver Cheetah Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 1,781	[QUOTE]Originally posted by MagiK: [QB] I don't feel picked on and I fully intend to reply to SC's posts, unfortunately Thursdays are just too busy to allow me to do so right now. I have wall to wall business meetings untill it is time for me to leave work for school and then Im there till nearly 10 sooooooo Tomorrow I shall attempt to reply. Silver and I disagree about a lot of things but she and I understand that the other is still a human being and I believe we at least can respect that one fact. Beside I learn from her I already know a lot of what she has stated there and have a different view on the issues...but she does put out info that is hard to get in other ways. I can only hope that she doesnt discount everything I say out of hand...well she actually said she agreed with me on a couple of things so I can't be too awful [img]smile.gif[/img] MagiK, just wanted to say 'sorry' - got a little heated back there. You obviously haven't taken it the wrong way, - thanks! hug . And no, I don't discount everything you say! We have very different world views, as I think I said to you once before, and so sometimes it can be pretty hard to connect, - frustrating for both of us, I guess. But we're trying!! [img]smile.gif[/img] And we'll keep on trying, right, dude? __________________

12-06-2001, 01:44 PM	#60
Bahamut Iron Throne Cult Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Manila, Philippines Age: 40 Posts: 4,864	well keep doing what you are doing, we can all contribute little for we cannot change the world in one day. we may die not even feeling fulfilled because of it, but it will help someday. their loss. __________________ http://makeallthedifference.blogspot.com http://www.bratgirlcentral.com/cgi-b.../ikonboard.cgi

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