Hating Illegals

[PurpleXVI]

Are you comparing murder to illegal immigration? Are you comparing illegal immigrants to Nazi soldiers? I'm... Buh.

Okay, I'm out of this debate, because I think we just threw logic out of the window.

[robertthebard]

I'm simply comparing one crime to another. When the chips are down, a criminal is a criminal, whether it's a shoplifter, a car thief, or a bank robber, they are all thieves, it's just a matter of extremes. One crime shouldn't be overlooked just because someone says "they were trying to feed their kids". As I said, where do you start to draw the line?

[johnny]

The lines have already been drawn out, we call them borders. Tresspass them illegally, and you're a criminal, it's as simple as that. It's another thing if you apply for political asylum, those can be judged fair and square, but illegal tresspassers should be sent back to where they came from right away, regardless of their excuses.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by johnny: The lines have already been drawn out, we call them borders. Tresspass them illegally, and you're a criminal, it's as simple as that. It's another thing if you apply for political asylum, those can be judged fair and square, but illegal tresspassers should be sent back to where they came from right away, regardless of their excuses.

What makes this problem particularly complicated now is because it's been left to grow for so long. There are so many stakes here:

1. the US govt - they need to protect the borders and enforce the laws. But they also need to take account of the resource hole that might be formed if all illegals were deported immediately
2. state govts - as above, but with more localised concerns
3. businesses - some (not all) have a vested interest in continuing to get cheap labour (or labour for jobs that nobody else wants to do)
4. the "long existing" illegals (those who have been in the US for many years) - they know they're not supposed to be here by law, but they feel like they've contributed to the economy in some way and deserve to be given the chance to become citizens
5. the "new" illegals (these are the ones that come over the border every day) - they want to make a better life for themselves, even if it means working in the US with no legal right (or rights)
6. American workers - they have to compete for jobs with illegal immigrants who do the job for less
7. legal immigrants - they resent being "tarred with the same brush" - ie because you're Mexican and look poor you must be an illegal
8. legal would-be immigrants - they have to wait in line (sometimes for 10 years) to get Greencards and resent illegals "jumping the queue"
9. human traffickers - they make money by trafficking illegals into the country

I don't think there's any debate regarding new illegals who have been jumping the queue - if found they should be sent back. I also don't think there is any question that borders need to be protected - Australia has this problem as well and as Dundee said it's very difficult to protect the border (at least we're an island far from many other land masses), let alone from human traffickers.

The complexity arises with respect to the illegals who are already here, and in many cases may have been here for generations. Do you just boot them out ASAP and assume that there are already replacements for what they do? There may be replacements for some, but not all, those jobs. And what immediate impact will that have on the economy?

Do you treat a new illegal who sneaked over the border yesterday the same as someone who has been working here as a house cleaner for 40 years and has contributed something to the economy (in terms of consumption and GDP) and who may have kids who are now American citizens who are paying taxes and also contributing to the economy?

That's the tough question for me. I don't think it's as simple as booting out the people in the 2nd category. But on the other hand if the govt provides an amnesty to make up for its earlier failure to adequately police the border, you're effectively rewarding people for doing the wrong thing (and maybe encouraging others to do the same).

As for hating them, I try to look at this dispassionately, as a problem to be solved. Then again, I don't know any illegal immigrants personally, and my business/work/life hasn't really been affected by them the way Timber or LoA or someone else might have. So I can't pass judgment on whether or not Timber should hate illegal immigrants. If he wants to personally hate them, that's his decision. His life is being affected in a negative way. Others can choose to hate the system, the government that let it happen, big business for supporting it, or Mexico for being damn poor. That's cool too.

Maybe I don't hate them because a ) I genuinely find it hard to hate people; and b ) I generally don't listen to Lou Dobbs when he rants about the "evil Mexicans" every night at 6pm. You kind of get inured to it after an hour every day for days on end.

[ 01-27-2007, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[robertthebard]

I don't think that we can differentiate one illegal from another. They knew when they came across, and they know now that if caught they should be deported. I don't see that they should get any amnesty, regardless of how long they have been here. They broke the law, and should pay the consequences. When you willfully, and knowingly violate a law, you pay the consequences, and that's the bottom line. Sometimes first offenders can get probation, and in this case, that would be deportation. I think that repeat offenders should get jail time. If Mexico, or any other country wants to raise a stink about it, then they need to police their own borders as well, to keep their citizens from breaking the law.

Now, I can't say how often this happens, but I have seen this; While I was serving my original prison sentence, and illegal alien, who was incarcerated for murder, was deported when his status was discovered. This is the situation in a nutshell; someone lost their life at this man's hands, and his punishment was he was sent to bed w/out dinner. If I kill a man in Missouri, they won't deport me to Florida, where I was born, because I'm not a resident of Missouri. They'll lock me up, and if they have the death penalty, and I get it on my conviction, when my number is up, I'll be executed. So it's ok to just turn the other cheek when it's an illegal alien, because he's not a citizen of our country, and not subject to our laws, even though he may have been living here for 10 years? The above example is real, I knew the guy while we were locked up. He got out of a life sentence, and was deported, and I'd be willing to bet he was back here in under a week after he got back to Mexico.

[Olorin]

Originally posted by Memnoch: 4. the "long existing" illegals (those who have been in the US for many years) - they know they're not supposed to be here by law, but they feel like they've contributed to the economy in some way and deserve to be given the chance to become citizens

There's a limit of about 20 years on how long an existing illegal could have been here. Reagan passed an amnesty in 1986 that allowed illegal immigrants at that time to become legal immigrants. Of course, because this amnesty did not take the next step, and include provisions to keep employers and future immigrants honest, it resulted in an _increase_ in the amount of illegal immigration, as those still outside the US took it as encouragement to sneak in, thinking that eventually, they too would be legalized.

That's the problem that we need to deal with now. If we grant amnesty to the illegals already here, we only encourage more to come. I actually believe that the best way to go is to focus on the employers. If they are forced to only hire legal immigrants or citizens, then most of the illegals will return home on their own, because they can't get a job. Much better than trying to find and deport over 10 million people, while thousands more cross the border every day. Take away the jobs, and there is no reason for them to come illegally.

I tend to agree more with Purple's sentiments. This problem cannot be solved by hating or going after the illegal immigrants. Only by going after the root cause, the jobs, can a real solution be found.

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Havock: quote: Originally posted by PurpleXVI: So only the wellbeing of your country matters? Not whether these people starve?

EXACTLY!!
I could realy care less what happens in other countries. It is not the job of the U.S. to babysit the rest of the world. [/QUOTE]Specifically the rest of the world HATES us for TRYING to babysit and fix their problems.

[Timber Loftis]

Havoc I'm going to give you a big [img]graemlins/wootrock.gif[/img] for your post, it rocked.

What-a-Wookie you get a [img]graemlins/whackya.gif[/img] for stating broad BS moral platitudes that don't address reality. If your statement was to be put into practice, it would require an idyllic world where every country was a "land of opportunity" or it would require knocking down all national borders. I give you the Spendocrat Say-Meaningless-Shit-and-Do-Nothing award for this thread.

[Nightwing]

So if you hate Illegal immigrants stop bying the services they provide. Stop buying produce and meat, don't go to your restaurants or golfing. Don't support them by supporting the industries that hire them.

[Timber Loftis]

Stop buying produce and meat? Yeah, I like that solution. Just starve, that'll learn 'em.