Is it France or Vichy France we have today?

[johnny]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: I don't know how over the top it was. The only thing the Russians had in ANY abundance was manpower. They used that extremely will I might add. I believe they were some of the first Suicide Bombers! The tactic was to strap dynamite to their bodies and go hunt some tanks! Other than that, they din't have much else. As you said they were able to move their factories east of the Urals. But you can't set up and start manufacturing tanks in a matter of days. We shipped planes, tanks, artillary pieces, food and bullets to them so they could hold on. I believe we still had some rifles that were left over from the some contracts with the Czarist forces in WW-I. Those were sent as well. Also I didn't mean to take anything away from the defenders of Stalingrad, but didn't the battle happen during the winter? Since Germany attacked the USSR late in the summer, they weren't ready for the Russian winter. They had no winter gear. The Germans were at a great disadvantage once the snow started flying. Edit: I might add that it wasn't just the US in those convoys. I believe the Royal Navy supplied most of the destroyer escorts and also supplied air cover for those convoys, without which they'd have never gotten through! But the bulk of the material that was shipped in came from the US.

*Off topic for the last time* They didn't use suicidebombers, but they strapped landmines on dogs. They tought the dogs to look for food under army vehicles, and in combat they destroyed quite a few good Tigertanks.

[Wutang]

Moiraine -

>Wutang, you too look to me as a brat with bad manners in need of a thorough >spanking, if that is the kind of humour you enjoy. Has no one taught you >courtesy ?

Yes I am trained in courtesy. I don't think you read my post carefully. I already apologized if I offended anyone.

All I was trying to do is lighten the mood. But it it looks like you took it differently. Again I'm sorry if you took my meaning the wrong way.

I disagree with your assessment of Bush and his advisors like Colin Powell as being brats without a new toy. While I don't agree with Bush on a lot of things, his advisors like Colin Powell and Ms Condeleeza Rice are highly talented people. I had the opportunity to work in Ms. Rice's dept at Stanford University.

Besides didn't Saddam try to assassinate Bush's father? Can you blame Bush for being a bit head strong over Iraq?

It's unfortunate that there are still major misconceptions about Americans these days.

Do you agree that most Europeans (or the world) think of Americans as loud mouth, immature and naive cowboy brats?

But we aren't all like that. Americans don't all wear cowboy hats, carry guns, and listen to Britney Spears.

I do foresee and dramatic shift in Washington though over the next few years in realignment of priorities and alliances.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the US reducing it's forces in Western Europe soon. I think Europe can defend itself.

And no I'm not a brat and don't deserve a spanking.

[ 02-17-2003, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Wutang ]

[The Hierophant]

So basically the bottom line coming through in this thread is that when people stop quarelling over their differences and work together toward common goals they can surmount any sort of odds? In a very general, sweeping sort of way? (sorry, I make waaay too many generalisations, I'm aware of that). I guess the main question here is, are the differences in this case really that irreconcilable?

[Iron_Ranger]

I would like to ask whats so horrible about being a cowboy?

Let me elborate-

Being from Texas, I know a fare share of 'cowboys' or at least what the world would dub as cowboys. If you want the truth, they are the most underated people on earth.

They are not dumb. They are quite smart actaully. They do not cause trouble just for the hell of it. They are hard working people and most are honest. They are infact smart bussiness people, its not as simplisitc as you think it would be to run a farm.

Of course these are not the cowboys you are referring too when someone marks a remark to it.

They are thinking of the folks who ride horses and still carry around six shooters in the holster.

Well I suggest you stop watching John Wayne movies and pull your head out of your ass.

So again I ask, whats wrong with being a so called 'cowboy' ??

[ 02-17-2003, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Iron_Ranger ]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: I would like to ask whats so horrible about being a cowboy? Let me elborate- Being from Texas, I know a fare share of 'cowboys' or at least what the world would dub as cowboys. If you want the truth, they are the most underated people on earth. They are not dumb. They are quite smart actaully. They do not cause trouble just for the hell of it. They are hard working people and most are honest. They are infact smart bussiness people, its not as simplisitc as you think it would be to run a farm. Of course these are not the cowboys you are referring too when someone marks a remark to it. They are thinking of the folks who ride horses and still carry around six shooters in the holster. Well I suggest you stop watching John Wayne movies and pull your head out of your ass. So again I ask, whats wrong with being a so called 'cowboy' ??

Well, it's mainly due to the fact that American export-quality pop-culture identifies cowboys as gun-slingin', rough-em-up, indian-whoopin' invincible heroes. Yet real-life farmers and ranchers arn't like that at all, they're just farmers and ranchers [img]smile.gif[/img] We have alot of farmers here in New Zealand too, I know full well how hard it is to work the land. You need to be gutsy, you need to be stoic, you need to get up early and get the job done (and even the historical, nomadic, cattle-driving cowboys lived a pretty lonely and miserable life. You took a job as a cowboy only if there was nothing else going for you) [img]smile.gif[/img] Yet it's the pop-culture icon that most people are familiar with, and thus that's the one they refer to. And let's just say that the pop-culture icon doesn't encourage all that much open-minded tolerance for foreign cultures (killin' injuns isn't all that PC), which is pretty much essential in today's global climate.
The pop-culture icon's way of solving a problem is to get on his horse (aircraft carrier), pull out his six-gun (cruise missile) and shoot the shit outta the indians (Iraqis). He lives in the short-term, day-to-day, and alot of people are now wising up to the near-sightedness of this sort of policy.

[ 02-18-2003, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Iron_Ranger]

I would assume people would know better then to take hollywood pop icons for a serious accurate pictation of a person/people?

Maybe thats just me.

[Wutang]

Iron Ranger - unfortunately that's how most of the world see Pres. Bush. A naive cowboy warmonger...which just isn't true.

There was no offense intended. I was only trying to get across a point.

Actually most of the world's opinions of Americans are simply based on TV and movies we make...stuff like Judge Judy, Oprah, Rikki Lake or re-runs of baywatch, Beverly Hills 90210 etc.

Sometimes I do wonder about Americans myself. Whether or not we've sunken into a cultural wasteland

Heirophant - Aye I wish we lived in a utopian society but we simply don't. it's human nature to fight amongst ourselves. Distrust, greed, ambition, power are all human emotions that we can't eliminate.

Unless of course we all turn into cyborgs like on Star Trek

But as to the point of this thread...yes there are some irreconcible differences but nothing that is permanently damaging.

There are still some bumpy roads ahead between the US and Europe and I do see significant changes down the road.

But maybe it's better in the long run that the EU and the US begin to chart different courses.

[ 02-17-2003, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Wutang ]

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by Wutang: Sometimes I do wonder about Americans myself. Whether or not we've sunken into a cultural wasteland

I think that sometime too. I dont know about a cultural wasteland. Because I think american culture, the real American culture, is great.

Unforutenatly, its clogged with fake hollywood crap.

[Night Stalker]

Ok, I'm going to jump in on the side of France for the moment.

Before I do, let me be clear that I disagree with the French Government. I believe they are playing deadly and dirty politics. While that position may be in line with the anti-war will of its people, I believe that the governments position is much more selfish. Of course the same can be said about the US.

I do think, whatever the intentions behind the post that this thread comes off as anti-French. It's all in presentation.

Moiraine, you are right, I can not recall you ever posting anything directly anti-US, just anti-war. While you may not toss them, there are others that do. Since I get defensive when they appear, I understand you getting offended as well. But I hope you realise that disagreeing with your nations politics, as do I, is not a personal insult.

Now to correct some history. First, the US owes France a very big Thank You, for with out their help we would not be a nation. TL, you are a little off on the Rev War. Of the three best Generals in that war, one was a Southerner (stand up and cheer you Rebs ), one was executed for treason, and the other was a 20 yr old Frenchman. They would be Greene, Arnold, and LaFayette. Washington was a good logistisian, but not a very good strategist, nor tactician. Also, the French blockaded the coast during a very critical stage at the end of the war, barring re-enforcements from helping the Britts. And the French owe us a big Thank You as well, for they would no longer have their country with out help. But that does not mean that we are beholden to one another.

I think the French suffer from bad PR. It stems all the way back to Napoleon. Vichie certainly didn't help.

Now to address stereo types. I know that we Yanks have a reputation of being loud mouthed, gun slinging, war mongering, greedy, insensitive, Capitolistic, Cowboy pigs. I'm sure you realize that the French have a rep of being effete, aloof, self-important, arogent snobs. Now these definatly aren't right, but they exist.

Hierophant, you've seen to many John Waynne movies, and other Spaggehtti Westerns.

[ 02-17-2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Night Stalker ]

[The Hierophant]

just to be clear: I'm not saying I accept the stereotype, just saying that that is the image that is projected.