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#31 | |
Very Mad Bird
![]() Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 53
Posts: 9,246
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Quote:
After apprehending a protestant paramilitary who had shot off the knee caps of a 15 year old 'alleged' car thief - we asked him what on earth gave him the idea that it was the right thing to do. He replied that the bible passage John 2:15 gave him ample justification: “Making a whip of cords, he [Jesus] drove all of them out of the temple, with the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the moneychangers and overturned their tables.” That animal went to prison - no doubt he reconciled that with various passages in the bible that related to jesus's persectution. [/QUOTE]First up, the Wilsons of my family came from Northern Ireland. Secondly, when I was in Ireland I also went to some Catholic Churches (despite being a proestant) and heard messages of peace. Put simply, to simplify "the troubles" as being a contest between two Christian factions is an extreme insult to the plight of the Irish people in the face of centuries of English repression. It has nothing to do with relgion and everything to do with RACE. The Catholics being Irish, and the Protestants descendents of Scottish and English colonists. Irish were forced to convert to Protestantism by their English overlords in exchange for food. Nothing to do with faith, and everything to do with politics. Christians following Jesus on both sides seek peace, and would NOT retaliate, but turn the other cheek. All that is shown by your verse and a subsequent reaction of "justified violence" shows complete stupidity from the protagonist. There is nothing in there that advocates his actions. All that would be justified if you emulated Jesus, would be forcibly throwing out people using a Church to rip off people seeking to worship God - sending a strong warning to corrupt televangelists mind you. He did not kill anyone, maim anyone, or even hit anyone. It's argued he didn't even use "miraculous power". The simple weight was the moral weight. Everyone knew the tax collectors and merchants were ripping people off. They themselves knew it. His violence was against inanimate objects, not life. It does say much about how God feels about people using religion for their own gain however. ![]() A simple reading of the passage provides this truth. Reading of the passages I quoted backs up what I said. Need I remind you, you haven't as yet offered any alternate explainations of what I posted. [ 10-20-2003, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ] |
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#32 | |
Banned User
Join Date: September 3, 2001
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Age: 63
Posts: 1,463
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Quote:
I look forward to further debates in the future [img]smile.gif[/img] |
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#33 | |
Ironworks Moderator
![]() Join Date: June 10, 2001
Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore
Age: 42
Posts: 11,063
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Coincidentally enough, I happened across an article in the newspaper.
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#34 | |
Very Mad Bird
![]() Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 53
Posts: 9,246
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Quote:
I look forward to further debates in the future [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Debate? You have not, as I have said posted a single counter explaination for the passages I quoted. All you attempted to do, was use a weak "out of context" argument, which was false. The one passage you quoted from the New testament you claimed was used by a person to justify violence, was easily shown to be a gross misunderstanding on the behalf of the perpetrator. You on the other hand have offered no explainations of the passages I quoted, and now offer a feeble cop-out based on the atmosphere of this thread? The atmosphere exists because you insist on holding a frustratingly incorrect line without seeking to understand what you are defending. It is clear you don't understand Islamic theology enough to make a coherant argument as to what the passages mean. All you have offered as any reason I should accept your word, is that you had some discussions with wise middle eastern men. Convince me. Convince me that Jihad does NOT contain implications of a Holy War. Don't just ask me to accept your word. Pull apart the Qu'ran, the Hadiths. If you believe there are contexts supporting your position, show me them. I have shown you quotes, I have explained the contexts, I have offered as further proof the numbers of adherants actions. Attempts to deflect, such as using Northern Ireland are ridiculous. Let's look at Northern Ireland again. Divide and conquer. Wonderful British legacy. India/Pakistan, Eire/Ulster, Kuwait/Iraq, Palestine/Transjordan, Malaysia/Singapore. Notice a similarity? Everywhere the British pulled out of, violence errupted. Singapores internal problems subsided, but hostility still remains between the Chinese Singaporeans, and the Malay Malaysians (when I was there Mahathir mobilised the army near the border because of a quote from the Singaporean leader). We all know how Ghandi felt about partition. We all know the result of the creation of the Kuwaiti state, of the creation of Palestine by Britain. Need I say more? Blaming religion on the Troubles so flies in the face of history and reason. It's convenient too. It's so much easier to say "Protestant" rather than Scottish/English colonial descendents. Look at the names for further proof. The "Protestant" surnames are usually English/Scottish in origin. The "Catholic" names, Irish Gaelic. As further proof, I offer that Catholics and Protestants live harmoniously side by side in every nation of the world other than Northern Ireland. A scientific approach to ascertaining cause and effect, would include looking at all the ingredients for constants in each scenario. For example, the constant in both the Inquisition and Crusades, is the political element. The inconsistency of the teaching of Christianity along with the political aims and objectives of the perpetrators. Comparison with Islam shows India/Pakistan - Muslims vs Hindus Israel/Palestine - Muslims vs Jews Talban in Afgahnistan - Muslims destroying Buddhist landmarks. Libya - terrorism vs Islamicly perceived "Christian" nations England and America. Iran/Iraq - Shiite Muslims vs Sunni Muslims Saudi Arabia - Wahabist purges Compare the fruit in the most ardent Muslims. Whether or not they are correct, whether or not they are right, they are justifying their actions in the words and recorded actions of their exemplar Muhammad. Just as he fought wars, so are his followers. Jihad clearly is ABLE to be read as Holy War, by virtue of people today using it in the context of a Holy War. Dundee - great post mate. However, I must point out, I have acknowledged Jihad meaning strive/struggle. I have acknowledged the spiritual element to Jihad. I am speaking INCLUSIVELY, not EXCLUSIVELY as Skunk is doing. I am arguing both definitions exist. Skunk is arguing for an exclusively spiritual definition. Yet clearly vast, vast numbers of Muslims disagree, and based on what I have read, and shown here, so do I. I don't seek irascibility. However, I do take umbrage at suggestions of ignorance or stupidity when a divergent opinion is expressed. However apology accepted. No worries Skunk. |
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#35 |
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RE topic ... That General Boykin is something else. I'm not really surprised about his comments. There are many more like him in offices of power. And there are many unlike him also in power. However, Boykin's likeness is more numerous sadly. What makes me uncomfortable are his statements: 1) his God chose Bush to be the President and go to war, 2) This is a Christian nation, and 3) the war is a crusade to drive out Satan. Arggggh! To wage war in the name of their religion?! That is pure discrimination and, dare I say it, racist, against all those who are not of "their kind". Why the hatred? Come on General! Is that why you joined the military just so you can have ALL that power and kill? Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I apologize to any who feel I went against any religion but I didn't. I hope I didn't seem that way. ![]() ![]() |
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#36 | |
Zartan
![]() Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 51
Posts: 5,373
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It seems we got an edited apology last week.
Article Quote:
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#37 | |
Zartan
![]() Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 51
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It has been mentioned that Islamic Extremism may not be as heavily critisized like the General's remarks have been. In light of this I consider this commentary:
Link Quote:
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#38 | |
Zartan
![]() Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 51
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Quote:
Here is a site to provide an overview of Christian extremist groups and ideaologies including information about Christian violence through out history, reconstructionists, and the radical right. Link
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#39 |
Ironworks Moderator
![]() Join Date: June 27, 2001
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Age: 44
Posts: 6,766
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Hum... before this thread, I had never heard of jihad as anything other than a holy war, the arab equivalent of the word crusade. I looked at dictionary.com and they define it as physical or spiritual war against infidel and for belief. Does anyone have any links discussing more about the other aspects of the word jihad?
[ 10-21-2003, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: Luvian ]
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#40 | ||
Zartan
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Quote:
Quote:
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