Should there be a Kurdistan?

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Well if you have your tribe and family.. just you and those that will join.. where does that leave everyone else.. Is it the duty of everyone to help everyone else even if it means self sacrifice?

IMO No. Nicety perhaps. Personal decision most definately. But not duty. Revolving one's life choices around one's own moral compass is all that can be expected of a person, indeed it is all a person can really do at all. Do whatever allows you to sleep well at night. Just what this exactly entails differs from person to person, but it is all that one can really do.
Belief in in a righteous, universal cause can make lifes' decisions a little easier, but it can also leave one vulnerable to the manipulations of others. Do what you feel you must, when you feel it is right to do it, and you'll finish off your lifetime with a clear conscience and little peace of mind. That's all you can ever ask for.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Yorick: You mention family and tribe. Politics exist in both. Fists exist in both. Brothers have fought brothers before now.

Of course, dear Yorick [img]smile.gif[/img] I was well aware of the sweepingly general terms in which I wrote my last post when I posted it. Yet my message was that for all the world's apparent movements, for all the rallying and directing of culture and social philosphy, all that remains true is family and friends. There are those people I trust and respect, and those I don't. No law, no constitution, no papal decree can or will ever change that. Politics exists in all human interaction, definately (of course this depends on your definition of the word, but I understand what you're getting at), but I was referring to the obsession with the lawful, 'democratic' process prevalent within the cultures of the so-called 'west'. If I have no respect for a particular law, if it does not make sound, logical sense in terms of benefitting our community as a whole, I will choose not to follow it. If I have no respect for a particular politician for similar reasons, I will not follow them, despite whether they are 'legally elected' or not. Writing laws down allows for greater ease in handing them on from generation to generation, but such written edicts can be manipulated to serve selfish ends. One does not need the legislation of some long-dead theoretician to do the right thing in this world. Help those in the community that have need, and to hell with power politics in any shape or form.

And in putting this into relation to the thread topic: redrawing lines on a map and renaming a given plot of land shall not cease the murder and hatred between the Kurdish people and their neo-Persian nemeses. Not much can or ever will do this besides a conscious effort among individuals themselves to cease the slaughter, and that doesn't appear to be anywhere in the running.
Draw an imaginary line on a piece of paper and then tell me I live in a new country and it won't change my idea of who I am, and it won't make me love or hate my neighbours any differently. It merely looks good on a UN charter, reassures us that we are doing something positive for 'human rights' and 'world peace'. Assuages our conscience. But in reality, on the streets and in the homes, nothing has changed. The hate is still there. People are living, breathing mammals, not reprogrammable computers that change their lives when given new code.
Everyone wants to put a name to something, define the boundaries and write the rules, make robots out of animals. It is not natural, not the way of things, this millenium-spanning trend of the written law.

[ 12-29-2002, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Ronn_Bman]

If there is a successful war against Iraq, there won't be much problem allocating some of their territory for a Kurdish state, but it's doubtful that Turkey will surrender any territory for the cause.

Turkey is nervous about a regime change in Iraq, as are Saddam's other neighbors, because of the after effects. While others are nervous over having a democracy in the neighborhood for their people to covet, the possibility of a "Kurdistan" is Turkey's biggest concern because many Kurdish holy sites are within their borders.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: You mention family and tribe. Politics exist in both. Fists exist in both. Brothers have fought brothers before now.

Of course, dear Yorick [img]smile.gif[/img] I was well aware of the sweepingly general terms in which I wrote my last post when I posted it. Yet my message was that for all the world's apparent movements, for all the rallying and directing of culture and social philosphy, all that remains true is family and friends. There are those people I trust and respect, and those I don't. No law, no constitution, no papal decree can or will ever change that. Politics exists in all human interaction, definately (of course this depends on your definition of the word, but I understand what you're getting at), but I was referring to the obsession with the lawful, 'democratic' process prevalent within the cultures of the so-called 'west'. If I have no respect for a particular law, if it does not make sound, logical sense in terms of benefitting our community as a whole, I will choose not to follow it. If I have no respect for a particular politician for similar reasons, I will not follow them, despite whether they are 'legally elected' or not. Writing laws down allows for greater ease in handing them on from generation to generation, but such written edicts can be manipulated to serve selfish ends. One does not need the legislation of some long-dead theoretician to do the right thing in this world. Help those in the community that have need, and to hell with power politics in any shape or form.

And in putting this into relation to the thread topic: redrawing lines on a map and renaming a given plot of land shall not cease the murder and hatred between the Kurdish people and their neo-Persian nemeses. Not much can or ever will do this besides a conscious effort among individuals themselves to cease the slaughter, and that doesn't appear to be anywhere in the running.
Draw an imaginary line on a piece of paper and then tell me I live in a new country and it won't change my idea of who I am, and it won't make me love or hate my neighbours any differently. It merely looks good on a UN charter, reassures us that we are doing something positive for 'human rights' and 'world peace'. Assuages our conscience. But in reality, on the streets and in the homes, nothing has changed. The hate is still there. People are living, breathing mammals, not reprogrammable computers that change their lives when given new code.
Everyone wants to put a name to something, define the boundaries and write the rules, make robots out of animals. It is not natural, not the way of things, this millenium-spanning trend of the written law.[/QUOTE]Fair call. Interesting points bro. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Heirophant, I admire your idealism, but it just isn't rooted in reality. Reality is that Humans are not rational beings. Reality is that there are always going to be humans who will not be content to let others live their lives, if it means those lives are different from some "norm".

Reality is, that people of conscience must take a stand to stop those that they see as being evil. This is a basic fundamental rule of our existance, and it also means that Human beings, as long as they remain human will never be conflict free.

Edit: I am all for making a Canukistan!

[ 12-31-2002, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by MagiK: Reality is, that people of conscience must take a stand to stop those that they see as being evil. This is a basic fundamental rule of our existance, and it also means that Human beings, as long as they remain human will never be conflict free. Edit: I am all for making a Canukistan!

I like how you worded that one.. "...those that they see as being evil..."

Well we all know that these islamic fundamentalists believe the US and her western allies are the Great Satan. They believe that we in the west are evil. Do they have a conscience? By that rationale you provided above.. are the actions of the terrorists to bring the West to ruin justified? They believe we are the great Evil afterall...

----

Canuckistan is the true North strong and free.. a socialist paradise.. ~sigh~ (j/k)

Djin, I had to word it that way because that is how it has always been carried out. There will never be a time when all 6 billion or more people on the earth see everything the same way.
Unfortunately I do not believe that the people behind the "jihad" and the war on the "Great Satan" really see us as evil. What they see us as, is the end of their domination of the third world. The truth is, the middle east is a region rife with terror, inhumane rule of men over women and children, subjugation, physical abuse and murder. The whole place needs cleaned out and for decent people who believe in the worth of a human life can be allowed to rule.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by MagiK: Reality is that Humans are not rational beings. Reality is that there are always going to be humans who will not be content to let others live their lives, if it means those lives are different from some "norm". Reality is, that people of conscience must take a stand to stop those that they see as being evil. This is a basic fundamental rule of our existance, and it also means that Human beings, as long as they remain human will never be conflict free.

Magik, unfortunately I think you are right on this one. You can only move away from conflict for so long before it manages to find you again. In so doing you never really move away from it at all because you bring it with you wherever you go... *sigh*.
I'm not against fighting, or defiance, in and of itself. I just couldn't be a part of all of this casual killing...

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Magik, unfortunately I think you are right on this one. You can only move away from conflict for so long before it manages to find you again. In so doing you never really move away from it at all because you bring it with you wherever you go... *sigh*. I'm not against fighting, or defiance, in and of itself. I just couldn't be a part of all of this casual killing...

Im not sure you can call this "casual" killing. To the men in the field, it is up close and personal, the dieing is certainly not casual and im pretty sure the men with the weapons are not thinking this is a casual thing. I believe to a person who is uninvolved and at a distance, it may appear casual, but when it is up close and personal, it most definatley is not.....of course this could all be just semantic wrangling too [img]smile.gif[/img]