My beliefs

[Maelakin]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: One thing I do disagree with you on is the feeling of the Holy Spirit washing over you having a perfectly biological explanation. I have felt both. There have been times before my Salvation when I would become giddily happy for no real apparant reason, but as good as that feeling was - it doesn't come close to comparing to the inexplicable peace and well-being one feels when the Holy Spirit indwells within them. It is an experience that cannot be fully and accurately described to one who has not experienced it.

This could be explained psychologically. In turn, psychological functions of the body often result in biological changes. Either way, whenever someone uses a feeling as a point of perspective, it is innately flawed. Feelings are just reactions within our bodies, they will and are just psychological and biological reactions.

In almost every religion they have some occurrence where feelings of this nature take place. Whether it is the Holy Spirit, Transcendence, or Enlightenment doesn’t really matter. It still all comes down to bio-chemical reactions in our minds and alternatively our bodies.

On the topic of source books and different viewpoints, Cerek brings up a good point. All these books people use and present as factual documentation have been translated, re-worded, and re-worked. While they may contain factual information, so do many fictional stories.

The biggest promotion I often hear concerning the Bible relates to the moral values it teaches. I don’t know about most people, but the morals taught in the Bible are for all intents and purposes common sense. There are no revelations in the teachings there. Any person that tries to live their life peacefully and respectfully ends up following some if not all of the moral teachings the Bible possesses.

The same goes for many prophets, many other religious works, and various other teachings.

The hardest time I have with various people of a religious background is how they answer my questions. I’m a person who came from an extremely religious background. Both my parents were Roman Catholics and we attended church every Wed. and Sun. I also went to CCD (Bible School) three days a week in addition to my normal schooling. It isn’t like I haven’t been open to the prospect of Jesus being the savior and God being the almighty. I was turned away because no one can ever answer my questions.

I have very simple questions concerning other possibilities. They only answers I ever receive tell me I should just believe, because if I do, this is how I will feel. Pieces of the various religions will be pointed out for me to ponder, that have absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked. Every religious person I encounter from multiple religions all KNOW they are on the right path, and all their proof lies in how they feel. Am I one of the few who sees a problem with this? Am I one of the few who realizes that if so many people from so many different religions have all found the correct path, more than likely none of them has? It is more likely they have found a seed of truth that needs to be further explored.

And yet, I am forced to search in the worst of all places for answers. The minds of the religiously enlightened, which are so set in their ways, it’s as if they had blinders on. They preach and speak of being open minded; yet, in less time than it takes me to begin speaking, they have already closed out what I am attempting to say.

Many here probably have preconceived notions pertaining to my personal beliefs. I challenge religion. I state religion stops people from thinking. I would say that if you needed proof that religion stops a person from thinking, look in this very thread and see how quick people were to put down ones beliefs to support his or her own. The fault lies not within the religious, but within the religion that teaches they are a true answer.

Some of you may disagree with what I say here. Honestly, it doesn’t matter. I know there are many more people out there like me who just wish to explore every opportunity we have too understand. One day, we will find people of various faiths who are able to discuss possibilities and the correlations between the religions and theories. One day, we will find people who are able to say, “I’m not on the right path, and I’m on the correct path for myself.”

[Cerek the Barbaric]

What are some of your questions, Maelakin? I'll attempt to answer them the best that I can.

[Maelakin]

Cerek,

You already did answer some before. My previous post wasn’t all-inclusive. However, I asked a couple questions a few posts back pertaining to revelations. How do you know if they are divine or hallucinogenic? Assuming those who have had revelations know that they have, there has to be some sort of psychological implications it has upon a person.

I’m asking because these revelations are a common theme between almost every religion. As such, there has to be some form of tie between them all. As each one often contradicts each other, how is one to ascertain those granted by a divinity and those that are a result of hallucinogens?

I have more, but I think one at a time will be better as some tend to turn into in depth discussions.

Note: I realize that those who have experienced revelations of any kind are automatically biased in their origin. I’m not looking for a defense for one to show they are not hallucinating. In fact, it is quite possible that a divine revelation is transferred to the recipient through hallucination and a form of buffer between the divine entity and the person.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

That's a tough opening question, Maelakin. I'll have to give it some thought and provide an answer later.

[Maelakin]

I understand completely. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I appreciate you taking the time to think about your answer before responding. Most of the questions I have aren’t easy questions and they take contemplation to answer. Many of them directly challenge a person’s beliefs, causing them to put up the magnifying glass and scrutinize what they believe.

I usually receive a knee-jerk reaction that turns into a defense of beliefs. I would actually prefer people to just say, “I don’t know, but I have faith in my beliefs.”

Kudos to you!

[LordKathen]

Originally posted by Maelakin: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: One thing I do disagree with you on is the feeling of the Holy Spirit washing over you having a perfectly biological explanation. I have felt both. There have been times before my Salvation when I would become giddily happy for no real apparant reason, but as good as that feeling was - it doesn't come close to comparing to the inexplicable peace and well-being one feels when the Holy Spirit indwells within them. It is an experience that cannot be fully and accurately described to one who has not experienced it.

This could be explained psychologically. In turn, psychological functions of the body often result in biological changes. Either way, whenever someone uses a feeling as a point of perspective, it is innately flawed. Feelings are just reactions within our bodies, they will and are just psychological and biological reactions.

In almost every religion they have some occurrence where feelings of this nature take place. Whether it is the Holy Spirit, Transcendence, or Enlightenment doesn’t really matter. It still all comes down to bio-chemical reactions in our minds and alternatively our bodies.

On the topic of source books and different viewpoints, Cerek brings up a good point. All these books people use and present as factual documentation have been translated, re-worded, and re-worked. While they may contain factual information, so do many fictional stories.

The biggest promotion I often hear concerning the Bible relates to the moral values it teaches. I don’t know about most people, but the morals taught in the Bible are for all intents and purposes common sense. There are no revelations in the teachings there. Any person that tries to live their life peacefully and respectfully ends up following some if not all of the moral teachings the Bible possesses.

The same goes for many prophets, many other religious works, and various other teachings.

The hardest time I have with various people of a religious background is how they answer my questions. I’m a person who came from an extremely religious background. Both my parents were Roman Catholics and we attended church every Wed. and Sun. I also went to CCD (Bible School) three days a week in addition to my normal schooling. It isn’t like I haven’t been open to the prospect of Jesus being the savior and God being the almighty. I was turned away because no one can ever answer my questions.

I have very simple questions concerning other possibilities. They only answers I ever receive tell me I should just believe, because if I do, this is how I will feel. Pieces of the various religions will be pointed out for me to ponder, that have absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked. Every religious person I encounter from multiple religions all KNOW they are on the right path, and all their proof lies in how they feel. Am I one of the few who sees a problem with this? Am I one of the few who realizes that if so many people from so many different religions have all found the correct path, more than likely none of them has? It is more likely they have found a seed of truth that needs to be further explored.

And yet, I am forced to search in the worst of all places for answers. The minds of the religiously enlightened, which are so set in their ways, it’s as if they had blinders on. They preach and speak of being open minded; yet, in less time than it takes me to begin speaking, they have already closed out what I am attempting to say.

Many here probably have preconceived notions pertaining to my personal beliefs. I challenge religion. I state religion stops people from thinking. I would say that if you needed proof that religion stops a person from thinking, look in this very thread and see how quick people were to put down ones beliefs to support his or her own. The fault lies not within the religious, but within the religion that teaches they are a true answer.

Some of you may disagree with what I say here. Honestly, it doesn’t matter. I know there are many more people out there like me who just wish to explore every opportunity we have too understand. One day, we will find people of various faiths who are able to discuss possibilities and the correlations between the religions and theories. One day, we will find people who are able to say, “I’m not on the right path, and I’m on the correct path for myself.” [/QUOTE]I feel the same way. I was not raised in church, but have exposed myself to many religions looking for answers. Exactly what you say about the normal response is spot on. The most common answer is, "you need to pray about it". The way I see life and after life is completely natural, life then death. The burden of proof lies on the one who claims supernaturalality. All the scripts, books, texts, legends, etc., are still only stories of other people having this "feeling" and "faith" in supernaturality. It does not prove anything. Anyway, I respect anyone with any faith. I just dont bye into the unnatural realm of things. I dont need it.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by Maelakin: Many here probably have preconceived notions pertaining to my personal beliefs. I challenge religion. I state religion stops people from thinking. I would say that if you needed proof that religion stops a person from thinking, look in this very thread and see how quick people were to put down ones beliefs to support his or her own. The fault lies not within the religious, but within the religion that teaches they are a true answer.

But religions HAVE to teach that they are, if not completely correct so at least, on the right track, don't they? Imagine if religious representative said: "...and this is what we believe. Now we have no clue if this is actually true or not, just our opinions." What would the followers of that religion say and what would they think about what to believe?

Much about a religion is to find a purpose of your life. A religion is just a standpoint: "This is what I believe to be correct and it gives my life purpose". Even if you don't agree with it completely, you choose the path that is closest to your heart. The alternative to this 'standpoint' is continued uncertainty about the life, universe and everything. You might find something better suited for you if you continue searching 'un-affiliated' with any religion, but on the other hand you might not.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Maelakin: I was turned away because no one can ever answer my questions.

SO why didn't you answer them yourself? Why did you look to others to answer your questions? Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP, not an test paper. As such, where you feel challenged you need to investigate.

You say "religion stops you thinking" but I think you need to qualify that to "Maelakins religion stopped Maelakin from thinking". Take ownership of your situation instead of passing the buck to others. You are in no position to comment on what my religion does or doesn't do to me. A few posts on a forum are hardly proof of your assertion. In any case, I see the opposite conclusion. I see the posts you mentioned as proof of independent thought. But whatever.

Back to the point.

You looked to others to answer your questions. What were you expecting? Spoon feeding? I answered my own questions. I checked things out for myself. A strong Christian does. Belief based on independent revelation within the context of a relationship with God.

God could and would answer every question you ask of him, but you have to ask him, not other humans.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Maelakin: I was turned away because no one can ever answer my questions.

SO why didn't you answer them yourself? Why did you look to others to answer your questions? Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP, not an test paper. As such, where you feel challenged you need to investigate.

You say "religion stops you thinking" but I think you need to qualify that to "Maelakins religion stopped Maelakin from thinking". Take ownership of your situation instead of passing the buck to others. You are in no position to comment on what my religion does or doesn't do to me. A few posts on a forum are hardly proof of your assertion. In any case, I see the opposite conclusion. I see the posts you mentioned as proof of independent thought. But whatever.

Back to the point.

You looked to others to answer your questions. What were you expecting? Spoon feeding? I answered my own questions. I checked things out for myself. A strong Christian does. Belief based on independent revelation within the context of a relationship with God.

God could and would answer every question you ask of him, but you have to ask him, not other humans. [/QUOTE]Yorick - Is there any way possible to get you to STOP going around beating the "Great Yorick Drum" every time you answer a religious post??? I'm sorry mate, but your posts are becoming increasingly condescending towards those who believe differently than you, and you take an air of superiority with everything you write. I consider you a friend, Yorick, but even I am getting tired of this constant criticism and condescending tones in your posts.

You went and found the answers to your questions for yourself...good on you. But the same approach doesn't work for everybody. And it is perfectly normal for a young person or beginning Christian to ask older, more experienced Christians questions to answers they have. Maybe you don't see the need for that, since your dad was a preacher and a lot of these "Beginner Questions" were already answered for you before you had a chance to ask them. But it isn't that way with everybody.

I have a good relationship with God and I've been a Born-Again Christian for 17yrs, but there are STILL areas of the Bible that *I* have questions about..and to be perfectly honost, I would seek the counsel of one of our church deacons or the pastor as a starting point in my search for answers.

Also, your response to Maelakin only works if he is a believing Christian - which he is not. You say that God would answer every one of his questions. To you and me, that might be true, but to a non-believer, it is just spitting in the wind. Suppose I had a question about Buddhism and asked that question to a Buddhist member of the board....only to recieve the response "Take your question to Buddha and he will answer all for you". Well thanks for nothing. I don't happen to believe in Buddha, so I sure don't think he is going to take time to answer MY question.

Finally, can you PLEASE stop taking any challenge of Christianity as a personal, freaking attack!!!!! Maelakin removed the line from his sig after you created a public thread calling for the Mods to force him to remove it because you found it offensive. I didn't particular care for it either, but I also realized that he had just as much right to post his sig as I do mine. Yet you took it as a personal attack that he was saying Yorick has stopped thinking because he is religious. The same thing happened in the thread that Memnoch had to close down where you repeatedly insisted that the Mormons stop calling themselves Christians because they didn't fit your definition of what a Christian is. I didn't get a chance to respond to your last post to me, because Memnoch closed the thread before I could. But just as a reminder, you asked me what we should call Mormons since they had challenged YOUR right to call yourself a Christian. Again, you are seeing a personal attack where none exists. The ONLY person in that entire thread that challenged anybody's right to call themselves a Christian was you.

In other words, try to stop taking a challenge or question or criticism of Christianity as a personal attack on Yorick. Because it simply is NOT the same thing.

As for Maelakin's questions, since you HAVE done such extensive research and investigation and found all the answers, why don't you try sharing that knowledge and see if you can answer his questions rather than insulting him for asking the questions in the first place.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Maelakin: Cerek, You already did answer some before. My previous post wasn’t all-inclusive. However, I asked a couple questions a few posts back pertaining to revelations. How do you know if they are divine or hallucinogenic? Assuming those who have had revelations know that they have, there has to be some sort of psychological implications it has upon a person. I’m asking because these revelations are a common theme between almost every religion. As such, there has to be some form of tie between them all. As each one often contradicts each other, how is one to ascertain those granted by a divinity and those that are a result of hallucinogens?

After giving this questions a LOT of thought, I've come up with the best answer I can. I don't know if it will completely answer your question because I'm not familiar with the revelations experienced by members of other religions...and of course....MY answer is based on the Bible and what it says.

In the Bible, God granted the gift of prophecy to several people throughout the history of the Old and New Testament. Many of the prophecies from the Old Testament were fulfilled by Jesus Christ and His ministry.

Every person that accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior is granted some type of "gift" from God that will help them serve God and His purpose in the manner God wants them to. One of the gifts listed in the Bible that God grants (even to this day) is the gift of prophecy.

However, the Bible also warns us that Satan and his minions are capable of providing "revelations". That is why the Bible explicitly says to avoid those that "speak with familiar spirits" (these include mediums, soothsayers, witches, etc), because the prophecies they recieve are NOT from God.

So how can one tell if thier revelation is from God or not? Sometimes they can't. I saw a video (produced by a Christian group) about Nostradamus and his prophecies. Nostradamus believed his visions and revelations DID come from God, but the video points out that he did not receive these visions in a manner consistent with how God grants revelations. Nostradamus would burn incense and enter a trance-like state of meditation to recieve his visions. The prophets in the Bible did not practice such methods. They either prayed to God for a visions or revelations regarding specific events, or the revelations were revealed to them unsolicited (usually in their dreams). While I've never met a person with the gift of prophecy myself, some of my coworkers have. They are members of the Church of Christ. Their theology and practices are somewhat different than Baptists or other "mainstream" denominations. I've heard of someone with the gift of prophecy coming to their church and then talking to individual members after the regular services were over. They would use their gift to tell each member what God had planned for them in the future.

To be honost, I find such uses of the gift of prophecy to be somewhat dubious. It makes them sound much more like a basic fortune teller (most of whom are outright frauds) rather than someone with a divine gift from God. Naturally, ALL the prophecies for every member were pleasant and exciting. There were no forecasts of troubled times or tragedy. That simply isn't an accurate reflection of life, in my personal opinion. Still, it made the members more excited about how they were serving God, so it's quite possible that the "prophecies" could end up being self-fulfilling.

The only way to *know* if a revelation is divinely inspired or not is to examine it and see if it truly follows the purpose and teachings of God. The prophets in the Bible did NOT always bring good news to those asking their council. In fact, the news they recieved was often very bad, but it also turned out to be very accurate.

As for revelations granted to those that follow other religions (or different paths other than religion), I would feel those revelations do NOT come from God. Of course, I'm sure those members probably feel the same way about supposed Christian revelations or prophecies. And these various revelations and prophecies probably ALL sound pretty much the same to athiests and non-believers.

As always, it is up to each individual to determine the path they feel is right for them and to decide which religion (if any) has truly found the correct path to follow. Revelations and prophecies are just one more aspect for the individual to examine and decide if they are genuine, or the result of self-deluded hallucinations.

Sorry if I didn't answer your question very well, Maelakin. This is not something I've ever really wondered about for myself, so this was the best answer I could give. This is one of the areas I'm willing to admit that I simply don't have a good answer for...but I'm still anxious to hear some of your other questions and I will provide the best explanation I can in each situation.