Principles take a back seat once more as India gets nuclear tech

[Calaethis Dragonsbane]

Originally posted by Sir Degrader: Exactly. In addition, India is the world's largest DEMOCRACY, and a rival to China, who the US seems to be not having fun with ATM.

Yeah, and maybe that's the reason they're getting their Nuke Tech.

If I were ever worried about China's expanasion and gaining a significant part of the world, I would arm the country next to them with weapons capable of causing massive damage so the threat of invasion suddenly seems a whole less appealing.

From a purely military perspective. I'll ignore economics and the like for now.

So, go ahead and shoot this theory down

[Memnoch]

You guys might be interested in some Indo-Pak responses to the deal (I'm posting these from a football/cricket site I moderate (the ESPNSTAR Sports site) which is largely comprised of members from the subcontinent. You'll have to excuse their command of English may not be as great as what you're used to. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Posted by: astra Mar 3 2006, 01:40 PM Most of you guys might know that India and USA have signed a landmark deal on Civil Nuclear co-operation. Am using the word landmark because probably this is the only instance where USA, the most powerful nation has agreed to such a country specific treaty. Consider the fact that India never signed the NPT, and was in the enemy camp during cold war. The hardest fact is that probably there are around a 100 countries who have signed the NPT only to find a special treatment given to one country. Initially, I was a bit sceptical about the deal, but now it seems to be slightly in India's favour. But still 14 out of 22 nuclear installations are under international surveliance. The most important aspect for which I was releaved was - India can decide whether to put a new installation under military or civilian group. But I guess US had no other way to put a check on India, especially when India has an impeccable record on Nuclear proliferation. Its too early to be euphoric about this deal, coz it has to be ratified by the US congress. And there seems to be a few people who are opposing to this deal saying what if Iran or North Korea demand a similar kind of deal. Or even worse countries like Brazil and South Africa secretly go nuclear and do the india way. No doubt, USA has its own interested for making this deal, which India ought to be very careful. But on the overall, these 2 democracies inching closer was quite natural and bound to happen. The sub-topic being the protests held by communists and a few socialistic parties. Have these communists ever left a chance for protesting and disrupting normal life? Especially when it comes to Israel and USA. These people are more concerned about people in Palestine, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan than in India. Have they ever protested against the dictator, back-stabber and mass murderer Musharaf when he visited India on more than a couple of occasions. Or did they protest when the chinese leadership visited India last year? NO... It was left to the few Tibetians to do that job. Now there is no comparison b/w USA and China in terms of freedom of speech, or Human rights violation. And look here, another example of what a friday prayer can do. http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/mar/03bush33.htm These people want everybody to forget their livelyhood to join their protest against some country's policy against some other country. 2 lives have been lost, and the UP govt has announced I think 5 lakh rupees compensation. What a waste of life, time and money.

Posted by: ritambhara Mar 3 2006, 01:56 PM I don't have much to write. But even i went for these protests. There were held for 2 days from Ramlila maidan to Jantar Mantar, i went on the second day. We were not a part of any party or for that matter any group, nor we were repr. our college but we went as independent protestors protesting not against his visit but against his policies. There is another article within that rediff link, where even my frnd has spoken to the person. I was protesting against his war on Iraq and violation of HR. I am not against America or Americans in general but against their policies which are being pursued by a few people. The party workers were sad.gif , they had come from all the palces, and besdies shouting against Bush, they even shouted against women being a part of it. There was Jamia and Jnu protesting too. A few Gay groups also protested. Well, i don't know whether these protests will directly effect anything but atleast through this we can make people aware of what's happening. Protests taking violent forms is surely bad. But again we have a freedom to express ourselves but along with that we do need to rem that it has to be peaceful.

Posted by: Maverick_Ken Mar 3 2006, 06:24 PM quote: QUOTE (ritambhara @ Mar 4 2006, 01:56 AM) I don't have much to write. But even i went for these protests. There were held for 2 days from Ramlila maidan to Jantar Mantar, i went on the second day. We were not a part of any party or for that matter any group, nor we were repr. our college but we went as independent protestors protesting not against his visit but against his policies. There is another article within that rediff link, where even my frnd has spoken to the person. I was protesting against his war on Iraq and violation of HR. I am not against America or Americans in general but against their policies which are being pursued by a few people. The party workers were sad.gif , they had come from all the palces, and besdies shouting against Bush, they even shouted against women being a part of it. There was Jamia and Jnu protesting too. A few Gay groups also protested. Well, i don't know whether these protests will directly effect anything but atleast through this we can make people aware of what's happening. Protests taking violent forms is surely bad. But again we have a freedom to express ourselves but along with that we do need to rem that it has to be peaceful.

I for 1 do not undrstand wat U guys R protesting for.

I m sorry to say Ritu but where were U wen Laden attacked America, where were U wen Saddam attacked Iran????
Where were U wen US supported Laden to attack Soviet,
Where were U wen China attacked Tibet????????
Where were U wen London was attackedby Al Queida
Where were U wen terrorists blasted the god damn pipeline of Spain.

U guys didnt go on a march for tht did U????

U guys didnt meet in Ram Lila Maidan n all for protesting against tht did U???/
Infact India gave recognition to Tibet being part of China,

Y U guys dnt go against terrorists, n hold mass protests against them??????

U kept mum at those times, U dun hav ne right to make hue n cries now.

I dun knw Y pple dnt turn violent aftr Friday prayers wen Terrorists attack nations of the wrld,
Y dun they bloody shuts down some god damn shops wen pple of Karachi attacked US embassy?????????

U guys R hypocrites, U hav 2 parameters to judge.
Bush came to India to help, yes Astra said it right tht US has never given ne spl consideration to ne country even except India.
Inspection team will come to India, but they cant do nethng coz India has saperated its Civillian n Nuclear installations, which means even if 1000 inspectors land up in india to inspect still they cant do nethng even if they see with their own eyes tht India is making some gazillion mega ton Nuke in their millatary installation. Coz inspection team dnt hav ne right to poke their nose in India's millatary establishments.

U wanna knw wat US got????
US got market, market to launchtheir product, as now tariffs will b lowered n FDIs wud b increased.
US got a nation who will buy their "Junk" millatary equipments, tho tht junk is also very sophisticated.
US got a power who is expected to come in 3rd position in Wrld's economy in next 15 years.
Only a fool wil try to mess against India, n only a smart guy wud b havin frndshp with India.
Iran is still keeping tht pipeline project on even aftr India voting against them just coz they knw tht at this pont of time, dnt dare mess with India.
At this point of time India is a power of tommorrow which has come real gud today.
India will never ever sign NPT, nor nethng like tht, but they will hav to carve out a new deal for India, n India will get the status of a Nuclear nation.
soon G-4 wil expand just to accomodate India, n its a fact.
n most of all US got a nation who is constantly keeping a check on China. Tht too in a democratic way.

All these protests R cheap politics and some real fanatism.
I wud say Ur godd is so high tht he can not b tarnished by some bufoon makin some silly pics of him.
Ur relligion is so highly placed tht no lesser mortal can even dare to tarnish him.
Ur country got a spl pact, just coz of a man named george Bush, n even before George Bush became President of US, wen he was a senator, he said tht "Future lies with India, V shud hav better relations with them" n no he was not speaking to any Indian but was speeking in senate on some issue involving india.

I hate Bush's policies, but at times I think tht wat he has done for India, n my anger jst dissapears.
U can call me a fanatic too, but my reason for fanatism is 2 countries I love, US n India, not some relligion, god or watever, its not like I dun believe on my relligion, my belief on relligion wud b as strng as Urs, but my country(s) will always come before nethng I do, even before my life, my family, my relligion.
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Posted by: mustufa Mar 3 2006, 08:06 PM So what is this, a pat on the back from US. And that seems to have worked well.

Posted by: astra Mar 4 2006, 12:29 AM quote: QUOTE (ritambhara @ Mar 3 2006, 11:26 PM) I don't have much to write. But even i went for these protests. There were held for 2 days from Ramlila maidan to Jantar Mantar, i went on the second day. We were not a part of any party or for that matter any group, nor we were repr. our college but we went as independent protestors protesting not against his visit but against his policies. There is another article within that rediff link, where even my frnd has spoken to the person. I was protesting against his war on Iraq and violation of HR. I am not against America or Americans in general but against their policies which are being pursued by a few people. The party workers were sad.gif , they had come from all the palces, and besdies shouting against Bush, they even shouted against women being a part of it. There was Jamia and Jnu protesting too. A few Gay groups also protested. Well, i don't know whether these protests will directly effect anything but atleast through this we can make people aware of what's happening. Protests taking violent forms is surely bad. But again we have a freedom to express ourselves but along with that we do need to rem that it has to be peaceful.

Ritu, I too agree about the policies, but how has that affected India really that makes people to protest for 2 days. I mean did US bomb India while bombing Iraq and Afghanistan. We took an unanimous stand in the parliament against the invasion, that should be it. But why stretch it to this extent. And where were these protests when Chinese leaders visited India? The same leaders who go to the extent of censoring words on the internet, how extreme can that get. Is it because China doesnt allow freedom of speech that the same Indians dont protest chinese policies? I think chinese clout is more or less the same as that of USA on India.

Basically how has Bush's policies on Iraq affected India? Probably oil prices have gone up a bit, but thats a very small factor. Or are we whinging that our good old friend Saddam has been removed from Iraq and so we lost all those oil deals? These communists have this habit of misleading people esp the lower and middle class to suit their own needs. I mean they are total crap, they protest for everything that has rich people and country associated. They protested Indo-US military excercise being conducted in West BEngal, for what, is it ok to conduct it elsewhere? And it was all ok for India and China to conduct navy excercises of the bay of bengal, considering the fact that China still bullys India and is holding a major portion of Jammu & Kashmir? angry.gif

Now what have these protests got you and us? Just loss of lives, money and time. Just imagine if there were similar protests with China, atleast it could have made some difference, people would have taken note of that, media in other countries would have taken note of that. I mean its so clear that there is double and triple standards in these protests. Have people of Iran or Afghanistan protested against our enemies all these years, that we are doing such a free service to them? huh.gif I still dont understand what these communist initiated protests have done to us. duhz.gif

Mussy, could you explain what you meant, it was a bit ambiguous.
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Posted by: Mike Powell Mar 4 2006, 08:26 AM What an irony that U.S.A. got the largest nuclear possession presently, and don't forget that they're the first who use A-Bomb to vaporised their enemy in World War 2. During the Cold War, U.S.A. themselves has also export their superweapons to their ally nations, not to forget the "noble" nuclear technology. Fortunately, this M.A.D. weapons never been use till the collapse of Soviet Union. And now nations like China and some other so-called third world countries wants to use the nuclear program. And wow, the "grand" Uncle Sam has start moaning and whining about the foreign's nuclear program. And moreover, branded them as a threat to U.S. homeland security and sometimes using the U.N. top member position to expand their propaganda. O.K. the Iranian nuclear program may cause some huge controversies even within their peoples, but is it mean that Iran really wants to use nuclear weapon to destroy the "hated" Israel? Is the American really sees this as a threat to their nation or simply a fear of their own shadow from the past? I maybe wrong anyway for all this comments. But with the Uncle Sam's "generiosity", expect some nuclear weapon to be build my fellow Indian citizens. So to all Pakistani, watch out. Or perhaps, the American democracy at it's "funniest" way.

Posted by: ritambhara Mar 4 2006, 08:49 AM ^^^ Another thing is, why nuclear India and Pakistan and why not a nuclear Iran. Is it coz' of Israel. Also, if democracy is a frnd of America then what about Pakistan. I ran has been a stable state since 1989. About the protests. I am not speaking on behalf of commnist party or samajwadi party, or for any muslim party. They are a sham and i saw it all on Thursday. Whatever lil respect i had was washed away. I went there not as a part of any groups, community or country. i went there coz' i felt strongly about something. That's it. Ofc it's not affecting my life but is that the only thing left. Care about urself. I mean, i felt strongly about the war and humanitarian issues. I went there to protest. No aprty or 100 party, bull s*** is all i care for.

Posted by: Maverick_Ken Mar 4 2006, 10:16 AM quote: QUOTE (ritambhara @ Mar 4 2006, 08:49 PM) ^^^ Another thing is, why nuclear India and Pakistan and why not a nuclear Iran. Is it coz' of Israel. Also, if democracy is a frnd of America then what about Pakistan. I ran has been a stable state since 1989. About the protests. I am not speaking on behalf of commnist party or samajwadi party, or for any muslim party. They are a sham and i saw it all on Thursday. Whatever lil respect i had was washed away. I went there not as a part of any groups, community or country. i went there coz' i felt strongly about something. That's it. Ofc it's not affecting my life but is that the only thing left. Care about urself. I mean, i felt strongly about the war and humanitarian issues. I went there to protest. No aprty or 100 party, bull s*** is all i care for.

Abt Nuclear Pakistan n nuclear Iran, well Ritu india is been given this status for its impeccable record against proliferation, U sayiing America is not allowing Iran to go nuclear, America never even wantd Pakistan to go nuclear, even Pak's nuclear program is under watchfull eyes of USA.
To b frank many believe tht WTC saved Pak frm gng bankrupt. Pak had serious cash flow problem at tht time, n they had to give a UN installment, but due to war on terror, n helping US, their loans were cleared.
Nuke in any Islamic counry is ............................... clamity of human race at this time, even Pakistan was having a walmart of Nukes, if Iran is going to b Nuclear, the problem will just intensify, in no time pple like in Al Quieda will hav nukes, coz every1 knws tht these kings of Iran n all only fund terrorist grps.

If these terrorist gets a nuke, U knw wat will happen???????
they will b having a board meeting to decide where to explode it, n this reason again brings India n US much more closer, coz the primary targets will b
"NewYork" n "Delhi" not London n any other nation, coz Islamic terrorists believe these 2 countries to b the biggest threat to themselves.

quote: QUOTE Also, if democracy is a frnd of America then what about Pakistan. I ran has been a stable state since 1989.

No they not hav been stable state ever, n the main concern as I mentioned is nukes gng into terrorists' hands which will happen for sure once Iran gets the technology
n abt Ur protest, ok it make a bit of sense tht it was just U by urself, but still Ritu, if U think frm Ur head, Bush was there to help India, no point in protesting against him thumbsup.gif
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Posted by: Mike Powell Mar 4 2006, 11:47 AM quote: QUOTE (ritambhara @ Mar 4 2006, 08:49 PM) ^^^ Another thing is, why nuclear India and Pakistan and why not a nuclear Iran. Is it coz' of Israel. Also, if democracy is a frnd of America then what about Pakistan. I ran has been a stable state since 1989. About the protests. I am not speaking on behalf of commnist party or samajwadi party, or for any muslim party. They are a sham and i saw it all on Thursday. Whatever lil respect i had was washed away. I went there not as a part of any groups, community or country. i went there coz' i felt strongly about something. That's it. Ofc it's not affecting my life but is that the only thing left. Care about urself. I mean, i felt strongly about the war and humanitarian issues. I went there to protest. No aprty or 100 party, bull s*** is all i care for. Well pal, believe it or not. Thousands of peoples has died for the so-called "noble" American democracy since their declaration of independence. Native Americans, Mexicans and other Hispanics, Chinese, Japanese and now, the Arabians are all the victims of American democarcy. Or should I say, empire of liberty. For example, they called China a threat to the world and claimed that they're building an empire in the east. O.K. China may have the intention to do so (as a superpower), but let's just remind those U.S. Congress's fools, did America themselves created their own hegemony during the Cold War? And had they forgot their own shame in Vietnam, the Bay of Pig's fiasco and recently, the W.M.D. case in Iraq? And lastly, do China themselves claimed that they're a freedom warrior? Like the people said, if you wish to brand your neighbour a threat. Make sure your enemy really comes after you. Or else you'll suffer greater humiliation than a true criminal. Posted by: Maverick_Ken Mar 4 2006, 12:21 PM QUOTE (Mike Powell @ Mar 4 2006, 11:47 PM) QUOTE (ritambhara @ Mar 4 2006, 08:49 PM) ^^^ Another thing is, why nuclear India and Pakistan and why not a nuclear Iran. Is it coz' of Israel. Also, if democracy is a frnd of America then what about Pakistan. I ran has been a stable state since 1989. About the protests. I am not speaking on behalf of commnist party or samajwadi party, or for any muslim party. They are a sham and i saw it all on Thursday. Whatever lil respect i had was washed away. I went there not as a part of any groups, community or country. i went there coz' i felt strongly about something. That's it. Ofc it's not affecting my life but is that the only thing left. Care about urself. I mean, i felt strongly about the war and humanitarian issues. I went there to protest. No aprty or 100 party, bull s*** is all i care for. Well pal, believe it or not. Thousands of peoples has died for the so-called "noble" American democracy since their declaration of independence. Native Americans, Mexicans and other Hispanics, Chinese, Japanese and now, the Arabians are all the victims of American democarcy. Or should I say, empire of liberty. For example, they called China a threat to the world and claimed that they're building an empire in the east. O.K. China may have the intention to do so (as a superpower), but let's just remind those U.S. Congress's fools, did America themselves created their own hegemony during the Cold War? And had they forgot their own shame in Vietnam, the Bay of Pig's fiasco and recently, the W.M.D. case in Iraq? And lastly, do China themselves claimed that they're a freedom warrior? Like the people said, if you wish to brand your neighbour a threat. Make sure your enemy really comes after you. Or else you'll suffer greater humiliation than a true criminal. Wel Mike I knw U R chinese so U wnt find Ur country wrng, but dude similar is the case with me. lets see. China attacked Tibet, on the verge of attacking Taiwan, Attacked India, now tel me on wat grnds U can accuse US???????? In Vietnam, yes US invasion was wrng, but dude US wud hav crushed the whole country in few more days, but the protests back home were sumthng which was becoming unbearable for the government. n even coming soclose to victory US back tracked by public opinion, tel me if China has nethng knwn as public opinion. all we knw is a few 100s of Chinese students had a very peacefull march against the government n they were shot dead. This is wat identifies Chinese government. China got UN security council seat all because of India, and wat they did????? came 2 India with illuding peace talks, flying over all crucial defensive oints, n first thng Chinese President did aftr landing at Beijing was opened frnt against India. Now tel me wat was tht?????????? China is an aggressive country, they dnt need reasons to attack. Infact its dangerous for the wrld at times, they supply technology to N Korea, Iran, Pakistan, for wat reasons????? Wen a country like this is the biggest buyer of weapons U get apprehensions. Pakistan is a dangerous nation, n wen they hav a coalition with China its very dangerous, n wen they hav a coalitin with N Korea, threat is even more, n if Iran becomes a part of it frust.gif n all these nations revolve arnd only 1, China So before accusing US, frst see wat China is doing. but I knw Mike its nthng U can do, coz in China U dnt hav ne voice, infact I doubt if U knew tht China ever attacked so many nations frust.gif coz the info is kept away frm U. Posted by: GorgeouzGunner Mar 4 2006, 01:50 PM quote: QUOTE (Maverick_Ken @ Mar 4 2006, 09:51 PM) So before accusing US, frst see wat China is doing. but I knw Mike its nthng U can do, coz in China U dnt hav ne voice, infact I doubt if U knew tht China ever attacked so many nations frust.gif coz the info is kept away frm U. Just like how most Americans try 'to keep the info away' on the fact that they snatched the land they live on from the Red Indians? I think America has enough blood on it's hands Mav. Pointing finger at China is like pot calling kettle black.

[ 03-04-2006, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[pritchke]

What is the tech? I have not read anything to say it was weapon related.

They already have nuclear weapons so I am not sure what all the fuss is about.

Is the tech to improve power plants for efficiency and environmental reasons or to improve weapons. What is the purpuse of the tech? Until I know that I don't see a reason to get my panties in a knot.

[ 03-06-2006, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]