Is it France or Vichy France we have today?

[Timber Loftis]

Sorry, folks, but France is disappointing me more and more.

On 60 Minutes last night, Rooney's commentary was interesting, and has been in previous times, seen as "flame" on this board. But, his points regarding France were:
1. it took 'em about 20 minutes to lose WWII
2. he was there when the US/UK forces - each who had lost 150k folks in the war, retook paris,
3. Only to see de Gaul parade down the chaunce de Concorde (I hope I got that right) the next day with 100 allied-loaned tanks and the free French army behind him as if he'd actually done something,
4. Only to see everyone cowering for cover a minute later when a lone sniper opened fire.

In short, he surmised:
I can oppose President Bush for wanting to go to war in Iraq. France can't - they haven't earned the right.

'Nuff Said.

And I'm nice enough to not even mention how France is benefitting off of the current Iraq regime - and I'm not even going to tie dead babies into it. Aren't I a nice guy?

But, I know history is not *now* and I don't claim it is. And everyone who mentioned the US's benefit from France's opportunistic foray into our Revolutionary War is quite right - it did make a bit difference. After Washington had whomped the British Forces up and down Delaware and Pennsylvania with an army 1/10 the size of course, even taking hundreds of Hessian prisoners with only a score of men.

[ 02-17-2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Moiraine]

No you haven't, Timber Loftis. Check your history books and your French dictionary.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Sorry, folks, but France is disappointing me more and more. On 60 Minutes last night, Rooney's commentary was interesting, and has been in previous times, seen as "flame" on this board. But, his points regarding France were: 1. it took 'em about 20 minutes to lose WWII 2. he was there when the US/UK forces - each who had lost 150k folks in the war, retook paris, 3. Only to see de Gaul parade down the chaunce de Concorde (I hope I got that right) the next day with 100 allied-loaned tanks and the free French army behind him as if he'd actually done something, 4. Only to see everyone cowering for cover a minute later when a lone sniper opened fire. In short, he surmised: I can oppose President Bush for wanting to go to war in Iraq. France can't - they haven't earned the right. 'Nuff Said. And I'm nice enough to not even mention how France is benefitting off of the current Iraq regime - and I'm not even going to tie dead babies into it. Aren't I a nice guy?

Taking this a point at a time :

1. It took the USA 60 minutes to decide to defend Liberty, Freedom of Speech etc only after it had been attacked. I seem to recall France declaring war after Poland was attacked to defend Liberte, Egalite & Fraternite

2.So were a great many people..and lets remember Normandy was a picnic compared to the Russian front, where millions of Russian died to break the German armies. Without the Russian's massive counter attacks in 1944, Germany would have been able to defeat the Normandy landings and subsequent drive across europe.

3. I'll give you this one, but it shouldn't matter who paraded through the city first..it was being liberated not subjugated

4. When shooting starts it's best to duck unless you know a way of making yourself bullet-proof. If you have tell me and we'll be rich !

and about right, war is not about who is right but who is left [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

Okay, Sir_ Tainly, have at thee:

1. The US was involved with large financial/supplies contributions prior to Pearl Harbor. Otherwise, point conceded - we were too isolationist then, and are trying to avoid that mistake now.

2. Calling Normandy a picnic actually insults some of my family members - one of whom (god rest his soul) scrambled around on those beaches. And let's not forget that Americans took the brunt during the Battle of The Bulge and that UK/US allied forces took several beatings working up the mountainous "boot" of Italy. The Russian front was a seige. Truly horrible, but not very comparable. In the end, we are all lucky, even the Russians, that Hitler made Napolean's mistakes: (1) fighting a land war in Asia, and, more specifically (2) attacking Russia in the winter.

3. Point conceded, but I didn't make mine clearly enough. From that day de Gaul led the military back into Paris, France has acted as though it didn't have or need any help. The schoolhouse where the Germans signed the surrender would be a big historical monument elsewhere - but not in France. The French wouldn't let Spielberg shoot "Saving Ryan's Privates" (or whatever it was) on the beaches at Normandy. It's simply as if France has insulted her allies by sweeping the WWII history under the rug.

4. Riiiight. Okay.

But, this isn't about WWII, and I didn't mean to start an (50 cent word) excursus on the topic.

So, off of WWII. France (and some other countries) is concentrating more on debunking the US than ferreting out the truth. Like partisan politics, it's become more about who has the bigger balls to throw around than how the problem can be solved. France would rather argue about what to do as *do* anything.

Timber-LoftisI didn't mean to insult your relatives, mine too fought in Italy and North Africa and also served on the home front. But after having had access to those that has spoken to German veterans from the Eastern Front, I would say the only thing comparable in my opinion was the Somme. (The battlefields of which I have walked..truly sobering)

As you say back to the present [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Sir Taliesin]

Don't forget that what kept the Russians going, was the massive amount of aid that the US sent via the ship convoys to the Deep water ports in the north of the Soviet Union! Had it not been for those convoys, the Russians would have folded like cheap tents in 1942! There would have been no counter-attack.

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Don't forget that what kept the Russians going, was the massive amount of aid that the US sent via the ship convoys to the Deep water ports in the north of the Soviet Union! Had it not been for those convoys, the Russians would have folded like cheap tents in 1942! There would have been no counter-attack.

Indeed but this argument works all ways..Russia needed equipment (Shermans, 3t Trucks, Valentine tanks etc) The Allies needed a second front. The UK needed Equipment too,(Shermans et al.) and the US needed High Tech Equipment / Intelligence from the UK. (Enigma, Radar etc) If any one link broke the others would have suffered.

[Wutang]

Yorick and others - hehe I was merely poking fun when I said I was ashamed that we liberated France in WWII. I was merely having fun just like Andy Rooney said on 60 minutes. and YES they don't owe us for anything.

Davros - Of course France has the freedom to disagree with the US and they certainly disagreed a lot with the US since WWII. I didn't mean to say that they were automatically wrong just for disagreeing but that also doesn't mean that they are always right.

France has become so contrarian to any US policy involving military action that at times it's counterproductive. De Gaulle even withdrew from NATO back in the 1960's.

I still remember France denying the US access to fly over France to bomb Libya back in the 1980's. We had to fly our bombers from England through Gibralter.
Which was just silly. Wasn't France was also waffling during the 1991 Kuwait war as well. I think it's why their forces were deployed as far as possible away from the main theatre of operations in Kuwait.

Having said that, I'm definitely NOT forgiving France (or Germany and Belgium for that matter) in their latest move at not supporting Turkey in NATO by allow defensive weapons to be deployed. That makes NATO meaningless.

I forget the columnist who wrote but he was right saying that NATO after last week should seriously consider re-evaluating their status. NATO couldn't even handle the Kosovo/Bosnia crisis effectively and that German peacekeepers had to request airplanes to ferry them to Afghanistan.

PS - oh yes we do "owe" France for our independence as well. But France today is dramatically different as it was back in 1789 hehe. Where is King Louis XVI? Wasn't he like executed by his own people?

[ 02-17-2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Wutang ]

[Ronn_Bman]

The Vichy government can be argued as having followed Hitler's demands despite any Vichy naval action (didn't the British sink some Vichy ships?), but before those of us who oppose the current French view get too "out of hand" making fun of the past, lets remember the US officially recognized Vichy as the legitimate government of France despite it's obvious state of compromise.

DeGaul was infuriated, as were the Free French, that Vichy was recognized at all, and that was just one of the many reasons for allowing him to lead the march into Paris. If we wanted a strong government for a reunited France, we certainly needed a strong leader, didn't we? We shouldn't really hold the Vichy government against the French since we helped give Vichy, which was thought of even then as a puppet government, it's legitimacy.

Also, while some of us are a bit upset at the French position, lets remember that we do have French members and throwing around insults, whether they were said by Andy Rooney or whoever, doesn't help the argument.... it only alienates our friends.

Love Ya Moiraine!

[ 02-17-2003, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Wutang]

Ron - you bring up a good point. Yes indeed Vichy France was recognized by the US but the US at the time in 1940 was still very entrenched in isolationism and it saw the conflict in Europe as still a European affair only.

The only reason the Brits attacked the Vichy naval forces in North Africa was that there was serious concerns that their navy would have been seized by Germany or Italy despite the armistice.

It certainly was a sad end to an alliance. The Brits didn't know that Admiral Darlan (I believe) gave orders to scuttle the French navy if the Germans tried to seize them.

I apologize if I offended any French members of this community. I am just somewhat perplexed at what the French govt can do sometimes.

[ 02-17-2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Wutang ]