Friendly fire? Sure aint.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: Oh P-A-A-L-E-A-S-E. And what of the TWO A-10 pilots that straffed C company 1st Marines, who had to take the VS-17 panel off the top of the ltvp-7 and fly it in the air? Or, what about the Brits who had to watch their convoy come under USAF fire. Or what about the bomb that was 'inadverteantly' dropped by a F-16c, that SPEC-OPS controllers said was a non-hostile target? No. it's not just a case of not enough intel!

Out of how many 1,000's of sorties flown?

[Aerich]

The pilot must take some but not all of the responsibility for the deaths; the major culprit is the communications failure. As I've stated before, it would have been preventable with a mere couple of lines in his briefing.

Some justification is possible because of his ignorance of the allied action in his area, and because combat reflexes must be taken into account.

I'm not sure what weapons were being used down there; if it was just rifle fire, the pilot's reaction would seem to be an over-reaction. Also, maybe someone who's more knowledgable than me about military hardware can let me know what exactly poses a threat to a jet flying by at a healthy fraction of the speed of sound. I'd like to figure out how credible his assertion of "self-defense" really was.

[ 07-08-2004, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

[Felix The Assassin]

Yes the world does look different from above. It was the not so friendly fire of DS that had the aerial identification become SOP for all ground forces.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/.../International

[John D Harris]

How are you going to make ALL friendly forces Indentifiable to other friendly forces with out also making them Identifiable to hostile forces? The fact is this kind of thing happens, Has every single round you have ever fired from a weapon GONE to where you wanted it to go, OR has every single round gone to where to weapon was actualy pointed? I'm a country boy I grew up with a gun in my hand and I can tell you it is the latter not the former.

[Timber Loftis]

How are you going to make ALL friendly forces Indentifiable to other friendly forces with out also making them Identifiable to hostile forces?

You aren't -- but that's a non-issue. Forces should be clearly identified. If someone can see them, they should be able to tell who they are. Actually, I think the Geneva conventions provides for this, but moreover it's common sense -- and has been throughout military history.

And, I am not discussing covert ops or the type of forces that are not supposed to be seen at all. I am talking about regular military units.

[Ilander]

The guy didn't get enough punishment, imo...and that's all I'll add, for now...

[Felix The Assassin]

Other friendlies? It's called AFVID (armored fighting vehicle identification) it's part of every day tanker life.

The VS-17 panel is florescent orange, measures about 3ft by 6ft. They are tied across the top,back of our armored vehicels for friendly air to see in a combat environment.
In training their are used for priority CASEVAC for the medical and logistical folks to see.
They cannot be missed, day or night, they emite a very eerie glow under night vision optics.

I'm a tanker, if I miss with a multi thousand dollar depleted uranium round, fired from a multi million dollar fire control system, then we have a problem. Even on the gunnery range where training ammo is not too expensive, to miss or worse, not qualify, can lead a tank crew to a new job field = Infantry! So, no I have not missed.

Now the 9mm range is a whole different story.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: Other friendlies? It's called AFVID (armored fighting vehicle identification) it's part of every day tanker life. The VS-17 panel is florescent orange, measures about 3ft by 6ft. They are tied across the top,back of our armored vehicels for friendly air to see in a combat environment. In training their are used for priority CASEVAC for the medical and logistical folks to see. They cannot be missed, day or night, they emite a very eerie glow under night vision optics. I'm a tanker, if I miss with a multi thousand dollar depleted uranium round, fired from a multi million dollar fire control system, then we have a problem. Even on the gunnery range where training ammo is not too expensive, to miss or worse, not qualify, can lead a tank crew to a new job field = Infantry! So, no I have not missed. Now the 9mm range is a whole different story.

Glad to hear the money I gave in taxes is going to a good cause and you have a good fire control system. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now I noticed in the link you gave earlier there was mention of two British Centurian tanks taking pot shots at what I assume was each other. Now there is a world of differance between a tank moving 45-70 MPH over even rough terain, and a plane flying 300-450 Knots comparing the psyhics of fire control of the two is like comparing peeling a grape to peeling a watermellon. Not to mention the psyhics of dropping a dumb bomb, even 1 second at 450 knots is a "hale" of a lot of ground, nearly an 1/8 of a mile if my math is right.

IFF(Indentifaction Friend Foe) for the fighter Pilots out there, and Ok for you Naval Aviators also is and has been a problem for years. Hale" it was a problem at Chancelersville for a sentry and Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson. I would agree with somebody making the decision "When in doubt don't pull the trigger".
But I'm also not going to out right condemn a man in combat who chooses to pull the trigger unless I'm sitting in the back seat with him. That's why we have investigations. If the investigation shows he was deralict then fry his 6, if it shows there was a Charlie Foxtrot because somebody somewhere didn't inform somebody they were having night training. Wack his pee-pee and put him back in the damn plane.

[aleph_null1]

Originally posted by John D Harris: If the investigation shows he was deralict then fry his 6, if it shows there was a Charlie Foxtrot because somebody somewhere didn't inform somebody they were having night training. Wack his pee-pee and put him back in the damn plane.

Not quite how I would've phrased it, but I agree wholeheartedly [img]smile.gif[/img]

This discussion isn't, however, going anywhere. The pilots gang up on the ground pounder who -- rightfully, I'd say -- will never see eye to eye with them on this.

*shrug* Oh well!