What grieves me and gives me a heavy heart

[john]

Watched an old movie last night,"3 Days of the Condor".With Robert Redford. Seems like just yesterday all over.Or maybe I'm just a little paranoid! Its'all about the oil!

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: quote: Originally posted by johnny: Jesus had his chance. He failed.

Warning to everyone in this thread...

Please ignore Johnny's flamebaiting scheme.
[/QUOTE]Larry, no offense man, but I think Johnny was particularly replying to this statement by Yorick:

Bring back Jesus before it all goes to crap...

Now, I'm not trying to bash on Yorick, his view is fine by me, whether or not I ascribe to it. And, I recognize the standing religious discussion ban can be a fine line that it's hard to know whether or not you've crossed. However, I think if Yorick can say what he said, Johnny can respond. Johnny did not delve into religious discourse, but merely succinctly stated an opposing point-of-view, IMO.

I simply think that if we allow Yorick's post and not Johnny's, we may be doing exactly what we were accused of doing on another thread -- allowing one religious view without the other.

Merely my 2 cents. Please consider them.

[Blind_Prophet]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: quote: Originally posted by johnny: Jesus had his chance. He failed.

Warning to everyone in this thread...

Please ignore Johnny's flamebaiting scheme.
[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Makes me sick. Bring back Jesus before it all goes to crap...

Yeah, we havn't had a good public execution in well over a century! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]If somethings wrong with johnny's comment what about this one aswell?

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Yeah, we havn't had a good public execution in well over a century! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Blind_Prophet: If somethings wrong with johnny's comment what about this one aswell?

Well it's true aint it?

[ 03-18-2004, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Well it's true aint it? [/QB]

No, no.. Mussolini hanging from a gas station makes a damn fine photo.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: quote: Originally posted by The Hierophant: Well it's true aint it?

No, no.. Mussolini hanging from a gas station makes a damn fine photo. [/QB][/QUOTE]rats, ya got me! Ok, HALF a century then

[B_part]

[img]graemlins/readingbook.gif[/img]
Actually Mussolini wasn't executed in public: he was shot somewhere near Dongo and ony afterwards hung upside down. So this doesn't really count as a public execution...
Anyway, that's off-topic.
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Back to the rift between US and Europe, I believe it's much bigger than TL thinks: here in Europe there is a rising anti-US feeeling, and, to be honest, the decision to attack Iraq didn't help.

Where does this feeling come from? It's difficult to say, but perhaps te most important factor is that Europeans don't want to be followers, they would like to decide on their own. And if the US starts a war on terror, a real war, with bombs and such, the reaction of Europe is that of condemning such a reaction. Not on a truly rational ground, but really just to say hey, I'm different, I don't depend on USA. That's pretty much what France has done about Iraq - trying to be independent (and trying to save her economic interests in Iraq in the process).
The Europeans don't want to be pushed, would like to sit, talk (at least until 2115 or so) and influence world politics, play a role. The Europeans feel they SHOULD play a role and the USA should consult with them before acting. And when Americans act on their own, since they don't really need Europe, the feeling is that of outrage, of being pushed aside. The common thought is that the US is only puìrsuing their interest and not caring a bit for the others, in other words, the feeling is that of colonization.

Add the fact that the pacifist movement is really strong in Europe, and that among the true pacifists (the majority) hide those whose idea of peace is a bit strange - that is if the war is done by USA or Israel is a crime against humanity, if it's done by others either it's a "liberation war" (against capitalism, of course) or it is simply forgotten. These latter "pacifists", on 9/12 were already saying that the USA had deserved 9/11 because of their arrogant imperialism. Nowadays, they pledge support for the "freedom fighters" in Iraq and the legitimate struggle for the destruction of the zionist evil. And the fearsome thing is, they are gaining consensus.

Throw in the many mistakes made by the USA in past politics (Persia, Chile, Afghanistan, Iraq);
Add the legitimate suspect that all of this is done for oil and/or other strategic considerations;

perhaps you will have a picture of how and why the rift between Europe and USA is widening, and why Al Quaeda is winning, or at least not losing... Divide et impera works both ways.

[Skunk]

Originally posted by XXXXX: Where does this feeling come from? It's difficult to say, but perhaps te most important factor is that Europeans don't want to be followers, they would like to decide on their own

Actually, they would rather decide TOGETHER - otherwise there wouldn't be an EU. We decide important issues together and we do not take unilateral action esp. when it will hurt all and only benefit one state.

Originally posted by : Add the fact that the pacifist movement is really strong in Europe, and that among the true pacifists (the majority) hide those whose idea of peace is a bit strange - that is if the war is done by USA or Israel is a crime against humanity, if it's done by others either it's a "liberation war" (against capitalism, of course) or it is simply forgotten. These latter "pacifists", on 9/12 were already saying that the USA had deserved 9/11 because of their arrogant imperialism. Nowadays, they pledge support for the "freedom fighters" in Iraq and the legitimate struggle for the destruction of the zionist evil. And the fearsome thing is, they are gaining consensus.

THERE IS NO PACIFIST MOVEMENT in Europe - there is a JUSTICE movement.

If Iraq invades Kuwait - THAT'S WRONG
If the UK invades Iraq - THAT'S WRONG
If a Palestinian straps on bombs and kills innocent people - THAT'S WRONG
If an Israeli warplane bombs a civilian appartment block - THAT'S WRONG.

As Almudena Grandes put it so succinctly when speaking about the Madrid blast where she has her home:
"We would have felt pain even if ETA had been guilty; we did not hate ETA any more or less than we hated al-Qaida. We hated murderers infinitely, all murderers...

That's the concensus that is gaining momentum - that justice is universal and not determined by the victor or the most powerful. And the more it gains a foothold in the european psyche, the more proud I am to be european.

The world's just going to hell in a handbasket

[wellard]

Originally posted by Yorick: The fact is, the world united a little after 9/11. UNITED. Empathy, support, differences put aside. It was an incredible time to be alive. The city of NYC united also. COnnection and love grew from the ashes of horror. Since then the divisions have only grown. All are to blame. But it would seem these divisions are Al-Qaedas greatest victory.

I put it to you Yorick that the feeling is still there. The newspapers and such thrive on and magnify all points of division and try to fill us with despair, yet the world in large is filled with beauty, love, tolerance and understanding. What we need to do is celebrate the things that bring us together. Not sit back and watch the TV doom reporters pick the scabs of those things that divide us.

I sometimes feel that the true evil is the press that feeds us insecurity and inadequacy