Visit the Ironworks Gaming Website Email the Webmaster Graphics Library Rules and Regulations Help Support Ironworks Forum with a Donation to Keep us Online - We rely totally on Donations from members Donation goal Meter

Ironworks Gaming Radio

Ironworks Gaming Forum

Go Back   Ironworks Gaming Forum > Ironworks Gaming Forums > General Discussion
FAQ Calendar Arcade Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-24-2004, 09:57 AM   #11
Timber Loftis
40th Level Warrior
 

Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,916
Why Nader is a Republican Plant:
_________________________________________
Today's NY Times

February 24, 2004
NEWS ANALYSIS
Relax, Nader Tells Democrats, but the Math Says Otherwise
By DAVID E. ROSENBAUM

WASHINGTON, Feb. 23 — In answer to a question on Monday morning after a speech at the National Press Club about his decision to run for president, Ralph Nader said, "This candidacy is not going to get many Democratic Party votes."

His support will come largely from "conservatives and independents who are very upset with Bush administration policies," Mr. Nader said, and he urged "the liberal establishment to relax and rejoice."

But based on who voted for him four years ago, his analysis looks shaky. Voters leaving polling places in 2000 were asked by Voter News Service, a consortium of television networks and The Associated Press, how they would have voted if George W. Bush and Al Gore had been the only candidates on the ballot.

Among Nader voters, 45 percent said they would have voted for Mr. Gore, 27 percent said they would have voted for Mr. Bush, and the rest said they would not have voted.

In California, where Mr. Nader received 4 percent of the vote, 46 percent said they would have voted for Mr. Gore and only 14 percent said they would have gone for Mr. Bush.

Because there is no reason to believe the breakdown was not similarly lopsided in other states, it is safe to assume that Mr. Nader cost Mr. Gore states that Mr. Bush narrowly won.

In Florida, Mr. Nader received 97,488 votes, 1.6 percent of the total, and Mr. Bush carried the state by 537 votes. In New Hampshire, Mr. Nader won 22,198 votes, 3.9 percent of the total, and Mr. Bush carried the state by 7,211 votes. Had Mr. Gore won in either state, he would have become president.

Mr. Nader said at the Press Club that surveys of voters leaving the polls showed he had received more Republican votes than Democratic votes in New Hampshire in 2000.

That is true. New Hampshire has 30 percent more registered Republicans than registered Democrats.

But people there did not vote a straight party line for president in 2000. On the question of whom they would have voted for with only two candidates on the ballot, 3 percent of those who said they would have voted for Mr. Gore voted for Mr. Nader, and only 2 percent of voters who said they would have voted for Mr. Bush voted for Mr. Nader.

Of the 2.9 million voters who supported Mr. Nader in 2000, 58 percent voted for a Democrat for the House of Representatives, and only 27 percent voted for a Republican.

Before he announced his decision to run, Mr. Nader said he was holding off to see if Howard Dean would become the Democratic nominee. But Dr. Dean's overriding goal now, like that of so many other Democrats, is to defeat President Bush.

On Monday, Dr. Dean, who dropped out of the race last week, issued a statement urging his supporters to stick with the Democratic candidate.

"Ralph Nader has made many great contributions to America over 40 years," Dr. Dean said. "But if George W. Bush is re-elected, the health, safety, consumer, environmental and open-government provisions Ralph Nader has fought for will be undermined. George Bush's right-wing appointees will still be serving as judges 50 years from now, and our Constitution will be shredded. It will be government by, of and for the corporations — exactly what Ralph Nader has struggled against."

In 2000, as the Green Party candidate, Mr. Nader was on the ballot in 43 states. Running as an independent this time, he acknowledged Monday that ballot access "won't be easy," requiring his volunteers to gather thousands of signatures on petitions.

But Richard Winger, publisher of a newsletter called Ballot Access News, said he thought that Mr. Nader could succeed in many states without needing the signatures.

The Green Party already has a ballot line in 23 states, Mr. Winger said, and might well give it to Mr. Nader. Other minor parties, like the Natural Law Party, the Reform Party and the Independent Party in New York, might do likewise, he said.

Four years ago, Mr. Nader raised and spent about $8.5 million on his campaign. For this election, he said, he has raised about $175,000.

So far, the campaign is not showing much organization. On Monday afternoon, his press office said Mr. Nader would spend the next three days campaigning in Texas, but a schedule of when he was going to be in which cities was not available.

Many of Mr. Nader's longtime friends and admirers have expressed disappointment at his decision to run.

Steve Cobble, a top adviser to Mr. Nader in the 2000 campaign, signed a letter early this month with others on the left wing of the Democratic Party encouraging Mr. Nader to mobilize progressive elements behind the Democratic nominee rather than make "a diminished presidential run that allows the media to ignore or ridicule or isolate you."

Robert S. McIntyre, director of Citizens for Tax Justice, first became interested in tax policy working for Mr. Nader in the early 1970's. Speaking of himself and other onetime acolytes of Mr. Nader, Mr. McIntyre said: "I don't think anybody's very happy about it. When everything we've worked for all our lives is being destroyed, it's not very appealing."

Mr. Nader recognizes that many of his old friends are disappointed. "I think this may be the only candidacy in our memory that is opposed overwhelmingly by people who agree with us on the issues," he said.
__________________
Timber Loftis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2004, 10:03 AM   #12
Night Stalker
Lord Ao
 

Join Date: June 24, 2002
Location: Nevernever Land
Age: 51
Posts: 2,002
This arguement that Nader was a spoiler in the last election and will be in this one is BULL. That or the same illogic must be applied to Perot and playing that coulda woulda shoulda scenario the whinney Democrats would never had their poster boy become President in 92.

If people vote for Nader, it means they do NOT want a Dem candidate. And if I vote for Tigger n Pooh, it means I don't want ANY of those idiots.

It's time to tear down the institutions of the RNC and DNC, for they both feel that they are entitled to rule. They certainly don't feel beholden to their constituancy like they should.

[ 02-24-2004, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Night Stalker ]
__________________
[url]\"http://www.duryea.org/pinky/gurkin.wav\" target=\"_blank\">AYPWIP?</a> .... <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[1ponder]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/1ponder.gif\" /> <br />\"I think so Brain, but isn\'t a cucumber that small called a gherkin?\"<br /><br />Shut UP! Pinky!
Night Stalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2004, 01:15 PM   #13
Djinn Raffo
Ra
 

Join Date: March 11, 2001
Location: Ant Hill
Age: 50
Posts: 2,397
Here is a good article. Everyone should try to check out the film:

Toronto Star

Canadian film may put Nader on radar
The Corporation sends his message


ANTONIA ZERBISIAS

Ralph Nader doesn't need the hundreds of millions that his Democratic and Republican rivals for the White House have in their campaign war chests.

Thanks to a Canadian documentary, the independent candidate for the U.S. presidency has political advertising for his message beyond what he could ever have planned.

The doc is, of course, The Corporation, a critical and box office hit, now in theatres across the country. In June, it opens south of the border where it could become as popular as another Canadian-backed documentary of recent years, Michael Moore's Bowling For Columbine.

And there was Nader, worried that the U.S. media would marginalize him as a "spoiler." That's because, as many maintain happened in 2000, Nader's candidacy could tip the voting balance in favour of another four years of George W. Bush.

But now, of all things, a Canadian documentary could put his anti-corporatist agenda on the public agenda.

The film, which airs in three parts on TVO starting tomorrow at 10, is a visually arresting montage of interviews, archival footage and animation, demonstrating how corporations, which have the legal rights of persons, exhibit all the clinical signs of psychopaths.

One of those personality traits? A reckless disregard for the safety of others.

Which Nader well knows, as he made his name attacking automobile manufacturers for their flawed designs. Countless lives have been saved because of his relentless advocacy.

So you can bet what's good for Nader isn't good for General Motors, or for General Electric, which owns NBC, or for any other media giant.

Yesterday, at his first post-announcement news conference, Nader complained that the corporate media "will be focused on the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being, George W. Bush."

Which they are — at least judging from what CNN carried yesterday morning.

At 10:01 anchor Daryn Kagan handed off to Nader's appearance at the New York Press Club "for a moment," and then cut out mid-speech with a curt "Not the kind of news a lot of Democrats were looking for." Then CNN went live at length to Washington where Bush was speaking, big surprise, about tax cuts and terrorists.

"If Al Qaeda were a corporation, middle management has been brought to justice," said the "war president," before launching into a review of the Golden Globe-winning movie Osama — and the lie that Afghan women are enjoying wonderful post-Taliban freedoms.

Of course Bush got much more face time than Nader, with his remarks unchallenged as usual. He's the president, after all, and what the president says is, by definition, newsworthy. Even if what he says is nothing new.

Nader's spiel is nothing new either, at least not for Nader.

"Global corporations are bent on strategically planning our future, our politics, our economy, our military expenditures, our education, our environment, our culture, even our genetic inheritance," he told reporters yesterday. "These mass concentrations of power, privilege, wealth, technology and corporate immunity have placed their rampaging global quest for maximum profits in the way of progress, justice and opportunity for the very millions of American workers who made possible these corporate profits but who are falling behind, both excluded and expendable."

Which, far less tediously, is what The Corporation says.

No wonder that the National Post — which has never met a Fraser Institute study it has deemed unworthy of republishing — has been campaigning against the documentary.

It began with financial page editor Terence Corcoran, who railed against the film last month, calling it "an evil, ugly and dishonest pack of lies" — offering little evidence to back up his charge. Then, last week, when the filmmakers challenged Corcoran on his accusations, their refutations were interspersed with his comments which only further attacked the film — mostly unfairly.

But did the Post stop there?

Hah.

Film reviewer Katherine Monk, who last fall raved about The Corporation, slammed the filmmakers in another column that ran with Corcoran's attack.

Editorials editor Jonathan Kay called it "a paranoid anti-corporate snuff film, one that treats capitalism with the same level of insight and sophistication as Reefer Madness did marijuana."

Ideas columnist Gerald Own, in a particularly leaden piece, said it was a "slander."

One can only imagine how the corporate media in the U.S. will diss the documentary.

If they discuss it at all.

If they do, they'll only give it great publicity.

And if they don't, their corporate masters and advertisers will fault them for allowing what will certainly be a blockbuster bust blocks without criticism.

A corporate Catch 22, no?

Either way, Ralph Nader's message will reach its target: if not the mass media, then at least the masses.
Djinn Raffo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2004, 10:52 PM   #14
Azred
Drow Priestess
 

Join Date: March 13, 2001
Location: a hidden sanctorum high above the metroplex
Age: 55
Posts: 4,037
Question Mark

The definition of insanity: performing the same actions and expecting different results. Azred pats Ralph Nader on his head.

However, all great dramatic tragedies (as presidential elections inevitably are) need a touch of comic relief, and Nader fills this role quite nicely.
__________________
Everything may be explained by a conspiracy theory. All conspiracy theories are true.

No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.
Azred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2004, 01:59 AM   #15
Timber Loftis
40th Level Warrior
 

Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,916
Thanks for the article, Djinn. While I don't necessarily disagree with Ralphie, I still consider him a spoiler, based on the 2000 exit polls I posted. 3% is 3% is 3% -- he cannot win; rather, he can only hurt the contender.

Ergo, he is a Republican plant.

However, if he comes into the race firing at Bush but not the Dem candidate (as he has promised) and THEN drops out in the end, it will be a boon for the Dems.

Ergo, he is a Democratic plant.

Schizophrenic reasoning? Well, it's been pointed out before that I'm not exactly well-adjusted. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]
__________________
Timber Loftis is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bioware announces MMORPG elvis-werewolf Miscellaneous Games (RPG or not) 10 03-15-2006 03:56 PM
Be prepared...For Ralph Nader Hivetyrant General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 4 10-21-2004 10:27 PM
Bush, Kerry, or Nader? Keal General Discussion 25 10-01-2004 03:04 PM
Nader Soldiers On Timber Loftis General Discussion 9 08-09-2004 09:44 PM
President Ralph Nader? Ronn_Bman General Discussion 7 11-03-2001 01:35 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2024 Ironworks Gaming & ©2024 The Great Escape Studios TM - All Rights Reserved