Power-warrior

[True_Moose]

A F/M is better than a Kensai->Mage if you want a full combination of the two classes. The view I've always had towards dual-classes (except for very high level duals) is that they are basically single classes with benefits. For example, a F/M is better at throwing on a bunch of protection spells, and wrecking things with GWW and other fighter HLAs. However, a Kensai->Mage is superior to a regular mage in that it's tougher, better with weapons (especially throwing ones!) and can actually hold its own in combat as well. Can it do what a F/M multi can do? No. But as a pure spellcaster, it is a superior build to a plain, vanilla mage, especially if dualled at the correct level (13).

I would like to throw out another interesting idea for toughest tank: F/M/C. Dual wielding flails, you can combine tons of buffs. The F/M/C, while missing out on the highest level mage spells (not important for this type of character, as it will not be the #1 caster in your party anyways,) will get the vast majority of buffs, as well as getting Hardiness and the rest of the Fighter HLAs. With this build you get 23 HLAs. Combine Armor of Faith, Hardiness, Improved Haste (not with FoA, but anyways), Tensor's Transformation and so on and so forth... Slap on the Robe of Vecna or Asleyferund for some added fun. People will complain about the split XP points, but remember, the spells are used to help the character, not to bombard from afar, so you don't need the level 9 and 10 uber-spells. You can even skip the off-hand weapon and absolutely floor your AC with a shield.

[ 05-16-2006, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: True_Moose ]

[ZFR]

Originally posted by Klorox: IMO, if you disagree, you've never used Fighter HLAs.

if you dual at level 21 you can get the whirlwind HLA. Agreed though that it would only make sense in a solo.

[ 05-16-2006, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: ZFR ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

1 Warrior HLA ain't gonna cut it, and dualling at such a high level is going to screw you over in your choices of Wizard HLAs.

If you want to promote the benefits of a K->M over a F/M, you are better off focusing on its' real benefits; and by that, I mean a (13->28)K->M.

For example, a level 28 Mage has the same number of spell slots as a level 31 Mage.

A level 28 Mage can also take in all the important Wizard HLAs.

A K->M has a better attack than GWW. It's called Improved Haste with Kensai benefits.

And so on and so forth.

ADD] That said, the K->M is not the best TANK. The K->M was designed to kill, not to absorb damage. In terms of offensive power, it is one of the best.

[ 05-16-2006, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[thetruth]

(...trying to find the "most powerful warrior" )


1) Kensai-Mage vs. Berserker-Mage (assuming that both are dualled at level 13)


Kensai :

a) +4 THACO & Damage bonus and -3 to his weapon's speed factor
b) 3x Kai ability

Berserker :

a) 3x Rage ability (immunity to imprisonment,maze,etc.)
b) can use shields (shield of Balduran,Reflection,Harmony)
c) can use helmets (Balduran's,Vhailor's)
d) can use bows (arrows of dispelling - the easiest way of dispelling in the game IMHO)
e) can use Bracers (bracers of AC 3,gauntlets of ext.specialization)
f) can use Armor (Bladesinger Chain etc.)


The Berserker is much more versatile without the Kensai's restrictions.Also with the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization (+1 THAC0,+2 dmg,+ 1/2 attack per round) the Berserker reduces the Kensai's advantage on THACO and dmg.Furthermore the +1/2 ApR (+1 with the improved haste) makes him a better fighter.


2) Fighter/Mage (24/20) vs. Berserker-Mage (13-28)


- F/M : is a lot easier to play with.He doesn't have a first class to reactivate, something that can be problematic for the B-M in a 6-members party.

B-M : he will be a better mage after some time and will have access to high level spells earlier.


- F/M : will have a better THACO.

B-M : will have a base THACO of 8, but g.mastery + STR bonus + bonus from weapons & items improve it a lot.And there is always Timestop (= automatic hits) or potions (STR,Heroism).


- B-M : Can achieve Grand Mastery in the weapon of choice.And with the True G.Mastery Patch this means 2 more attacks/round with improved haste.A big advantage.

F/M : Specializing in different weapons means more versatility for the F/M.


- F/M : will have better Saving Throws.

B-M : He has his rage and potions.
But does a Mage really need good Saving Throws ?


- B-M : will have more Hit Points.

F/M : Does a Mage really need more Hit Points ?


HLAs :

- F/M : GWW attacks.

B-M : improved Haste + dualwielding is better than GWW and MUCH better with the True G.Mastery Patch installed.


- F/M : Hardiness.

B-M : It is good the ability to resist damage but avoiding it is even better.


- F/M : Critical Strike= Huge Damage/round & Deathblows = Dead Mind Flayers,Beholders.

B-M : OK they are very good advantages.
Although C.Strike is useless against enemies with helmets and most "Bosses".


Spells :

F/M : * Sigh *

B-M : Ahem : +1 Level 6, +2 Level 7,8,9 spells/day.
Not many things can survive an improved hasted Berserker-Mage in a 4x Timestop combo.Not to mention the better possibilities of practising high level Mage-cheese


IMHO it's not easy to say who is better,although I consider the Berserker-Mage slightly more powerful.


3) Berserker-Mage vs. Ranger/Cleric


The Ranger/Cleric is one of the most powerful characters in the game IMO.
Righteous Magic + GWW attacks combined with Ironskins or Armor of Faith + Hardiness + the flail Defender of Eastheaven make the Ranger/Cleric a super-tank.
Spells like Insect Plague/C.Doom (anti-mage), firestorm, or the uber-powerful (and cheesy) Nature's Beauty and Harm, are spells that every Mage would like to have.

But the problem is that Mages have MANY other spells that a Ranger/Cleric doesn't have.
Just the Protection Removal spells, Spell Immunities, Improved Haste and Timestop are enough to confirm the supremacy of the Mage.

Arcane spellcasters are too overpowered in this game (unfortunately).


PS: Sorry for the long post

[timothy trotter]

nicely put together thetruth. I guess it tepends on what you consider powerful. If you want a tank that absorbs damage, you may be after something like a ranger cleric, but a berserker mage might be a better option for a damage dealer/

[ 05-17-2006, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: timothy trotter ]

[Klorox]

thetruth, it's important to remember that grandmastersy was nerfed on purpose. Using a mod to change this will obviously tilt the argument in your favor.

[thetruth]

Using a mod to change this will obviously tilt the argument in your favor.

But I considered this already.
Whether you use the G.Mastery patch or not, for example, the Improved Haste is still better than the GWW attack.
The main strength of the B-M is not in his G.Mastery but in his superior spell-casting ability

Note also that the True G.Mastery Patch is not just an ordinary mod.It restores the G.Mastery to what it was in BG1 and according to the 2ed Rules.

Personally I haven't used yet the patch in my games,although I find it 100% legitimate.
Bioware nerfed it for "game balance".This makes sense to me for BG1, where fighter-classes are quite powerful and G.Mastery would unbalance the game in their favor.

But what's the reason to do such a thing in BG2 ?
Would G.Mastery unbalance the game and not the overpowered Arcane spells for example ?
And something else, don't you think that a plain Fighter who has "dedicated his life" in the G.Mastery of a weapon should have sthg more than an insignificant bonus compared to a specialized Ranger or Paladin ?

[Klorox]

Originally posted by thetruth: quote: Using a mod to change this will obviously tilt the argument in your favor.

It restores the G.Mastery ...according to the 2ed Rules.
[/QUOTE]B.S.

There was no Grandmastery in 2e rules. Never was, never will be.

[thetruth]

B.S. There was no Grandmastery in 2e rules. Never was, never will be.

Readme from James Schumacher's (TeamBG) patch :

.....This is as per AD&D specs. Grand Mastery was correctly implemented in Baldur's Gate 1 and Icewind Dale, but was changed in Baldur's Gate 2 for "game balance.".......

Someone more informed than me,could give the titles of some of the 2Ed books who mention it clearly.
Anyway if it disturbs you so much you don't have to use it ...

[Klorox]

Grandmastery is not in any edition of the pen and paper Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game. I've played every version there is, and know the game, especially 2e, inside and out.

The idea of Grandmastery is in the video games, not the books.

It's not a matter of "disturbing" me, it's my attempt to clarify an issue for those who have never enjoyed the actual game.