My beliefs

[Yorick]

Originally posted by sultan: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: You made an assertion that the Bible was rewritten in 397. This is a preposterous allegation that ignores historical fact. 24,000 manuscripts of the New testament alone, dating to a mere 50 years after the events of the New testament are in societies possession. We have the Dead sea scrolls which further reinforce the validity of the works as UNCHANGED during the ages.

pikachu, dont take yorick's comments too seriously. he's just repeating an erroneous conclusion he made in another thread. the evidence he provided to support it does not support the "facts" he lists above.

• the 24,000 manuscripts are not complete manuscripts but rather the gross majority are fragments. regardless, the repetition of material is only proof of copying, not validity. compare this to having disparate sources confirming events.

• the fact that the works are unchanged only confirms that there was a single source that was copied, propogating contents rather than confirming validity, as described in the first point above

• the 50 years date is a best case referring to only a scarce handful of those manuscripts - the majority date from hundreds of years after. so even the earliest source material for the copying was distantly removed from events they purport to represent

[/QUOTE]I did not say 24,000 complete manuscripts, I said 24,000 manuscripts, which is correct.

In any case, the assertion that the bible was rewritten in 397 AD is ludicrous and nonfactual. Additionally, the first five books of the old testament match the Jewish Torah. are we suggesting the Catholic Council managed to replace the Jewish Torah every scattered Jewish community possessed?

I think not.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Faceman: With the same justification I could state that (IMHO) the key/primary feature of God is love and thus every other characteristic of god is based on his love and thus love is a border to God.

Love is an inclusive facet of God, not a limitation or border.

About the equation: What is self-awareness? Who's to say the universe is not self-aware? If we are self-aware (true) and we are part of the universe (true), doesn't that make the universe self-aware at least in part?

I would argue that it does. To my knowledge, Pantheism does not recognise a general universal awareness... although if a Hindu faith popped up that did. it would be incorperated into the Hindy pantheon.

Most Buddhists and Hindus when they pray, make offerings, or requests etc. do so to specific deities. Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna etc. The "Chinese Religion" (a merger of Buddhism/Taosim/Confucianism) has temples to various specific deities. I visited one in Asia to some "goddess of mercy", full of Chinese offering supplications and offerings. (Despite Buddha's teaching that it is pointless following the deities - who are also caught in the Karmic cycle.... but rock and roll. C'est la vie)

[ 11-10-2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by Yorick: Secondly pantheism is not a religion. It is a worldview that is the foundation of many religions.

It may not be a religion to you, mate. Atheism, Pantheism, Polytheism, Monotheism all have a common root: theism, which is a belief system. By deningrating Pantheism, you are doing the same thing as I would be by mocking Christianity or Islam.

Originally posted by Yorick: It seems more than a few have trouble understanding the difference between an idea, and people. Here are some examples: Republicanism is evil vs Republicans are evil. Communism is stupid vs Communists are stupid Christianity is confusing vs Christians are confused Environmentalism destroys society vs Environmentalists destroy society Islam contains calls to violence vs Muslims are violent Homosexual sex is a perversion vs Homosexuals are perverted Guns are dangerous vs Gun owners are dangerous Public education has failed vs Teachers are failures ---------- However, I cross over by describing an ideas effect and a subsequent generalisation of PEOPLE: Sport inhibits compassion Gun ownership leads to murderous intent Pantheism leads to social deafness Christianity leads to self-rightousness Communism creates anarchists Republicanism breeds racism +++++++++++++++ Does ANYONE understand the difference I am speaking of?

I see where you are trying to go with this mate, but you are making a logical mistake in your arguements.

Broken down, your problem with Maeklin's sig followed this progression: (I don't even know which topic this is anymore ....)
Person A makes insulting statement about Idea X.
I believe in Idea X.
->Therefore, Person A must be insulting me.

You can apply this (false) logic to any of the statements you make in your first set.

Homosexual sex is a perversion {of nature}.
I am a homosexual. (for arguements sake )
->Therefore: You are calling me a perversion of nature.

Republicanism is evil.
I am a Repuglican. (again, for arguements sake! [img]tongue.gif[/img] )
->Therefore: You are calling me evil.

Using this fallacy of logic, it is impossible to debate any idea because any arguement against an idea turns into an insult to those with an opposing view.

Just because I believe that followers of religion are ignorant twits doesn't mean I believe you are an ignorant twit. It does mean that I think that you are misguided and uninformed, and need saving of mindless brainwashing. [img]tongue.gif[/img] And the converse is also true. The faithful think I am just a misguided lost soul in need of saving!

NOTE: The above is meant to be a tongue and cheek way of demonstrating a point and NOT an insult to anyone or no one. Nobody should be insulted though! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Secondly pantheism is not a religion. It is a worldview that is the foundation of many religions.

It may not be a religion to you, mate. Atheism, Pantheism, Polytheism, Monotheism all have a common root: theism, which is a belief system. By deningrating Pantheism, you are doing the same thing as I would be by mocking Christianity or Islam.[/QUOTE]Clarifying pantheism as not being a religion is not a denigration. I would say the same of monotheism.

Pantheism
Polytheism
Monotheism
Atheism
Panentheism

None of these are religions. They are worldviews. A single religion could contain one or more of these worldviews.

Broken down, your problem with Maeklin's sig followed this progression: (I don't even know which topic this is anymore ....) Person A makes insulting statement about Idea X. I believe in Idea X. ->Therefore, Person A must be insulting me. You can apply this (false) logic to any of the statements you make in your first set. Homosexual sex is a perversion {of nature}. I am a homosexual. (for arguements sake ) ->Therefore: You are calling me a perversion of nature. Republicanism is evil. I am a Repuglican. (again, for arguements sake! [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) ->Therefore: You are calling me evil. Using this fallacy of logic, it is impossible to debate any idea because any arguement against an idea turns into an insult to those with an opposing view. Just because I believe that followers of religion are ignorant twits doesn't mean I believe you are an ignorant twit. It does mean that I think that you are misguided and uninformed, and need saving of mindless brainwashing. [img]tongue.gif[/img] And the converse is also true. The faithful think I am just a misguided lost soul in need of saving! NOTE: The above is meant to be a tongue and cheek way of demonstrating a point and NOT an insult to anyone or no one. Nobody should be insulted though! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/qb]

There is a big difference I don't think you're getting.

I don't believe in religion. I am religious. Religion is a collection of humans. The EFFECT of being part of that collection was deemed to be addiction, and lack of self thought.

Homosexual sex is an act. Like adultery, a person is only a homosexual or an adulterer by virtue of the act of sex. You can have homosexual desire, or adulterous desire, and not act on it, and therefore not be either.

Hence, in criticising homosexuality or adultery as perversions of monogamous heterosexual relations, you are making a statement about sexual actions, and what you believe are the intended actions and what you believe are the perverted actions.

It is still not a comment on whether either the adulter or homosexual are of themselves perverted. Doing so would be suggesting that a persons value, worth, moral fibre and constitution is defined by their sexual preference.

Republicanism is evil. I am a Repuglican. (again, for arguements sake! [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) ->Therefore: You are calling me evil.

But are you a republican or are you a human who believes in the ideas of republicanism?

Being religious is not an idea. Being part of a religion is not an idea. It is a state of being. A way of life. A foundation upon which actions, morals, beliefs are determined. Do we ever say "I believe in religion"? You could be religious, and say you do not believe in religion! Many Christians would actually say that. Religion CONTAINS ideas. Religions CONTAIN lifestyle choices. The beliefs and choices differ from faith to faith. From religion to religion.

Republicanism, is a very specific set of ideals and ideas. You believe in republicanism, but you cannot be republicanism, in whole or in part.

Homosexuality is a very specific way of having sex. You can engage in homosexuality, but you cannot be homosexuality, in whole or in part.

[ 11-10-2003, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

In any case, the main point was that it was in his sig, and that it was in effect making an argument with every post he made, no matter what forum or thread he appeared in. A fact that seems lost to people.

I made an individual request. Had I Yorick, put a statement deriding atheists or saying atheism produced stunted reasoning in it's adherants, in my sig, hypocrisy would have been the loudest and most correct accusation.

However, mine is neutral. I had the problem and made a request he reduce it back to my level.

Now.. the sig topic is a dead horse. Can we move on please?

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Maelakin: Going back to your experiences, I would like to ask a couple questions if you don’t mind. First, lets look at the experience pertaining to your current job. From the style of praying you were doing it looked to be as if you started out trying to force an occurrence and then later resorted to giving in and allowing whatever happens to happen. If you could, I would appreciate it if you could expand on what your outlook was at the time and how you felt. Your experience causes me to wonder in what way you were looking at life. The reason I ask is because a person has a very hard time noticing opportunity when they attempt to force their life in any given direction. The harder we look for answers, the slower they come. We fail to pay attention to everything that is around us when we are in this mind frame. However, once you let go it is easier to pay attention to what goes on around us. When you let go and free your mind, you allow the time needed to see all that is around you instead of diverting your energy to worrying about that you cannot control. It creates a perception of life through a tunnel. Now, I’m not saying that the job opportunity presented to you became open because you did decide to let go, but I am suggesting that you may have missed many more opportunities like the one you did find because you hadn’t let go previously.

Alright, I finally have a few a few minutes to try to answer these questions more in depth.

In one respect, you are right about my developing a "tunnel vision focus" on how to solve the job problem. I kept trying to think of possible solutions within the framework of the facility I already worked at. I knew there was NO possibility of promotion (short of my boss being forced to retire unexpectedly through some unforeseen circumstance). Even if that had happened, there was no garuantee that I would be promoted to replace him. I also considered going to other deparmtents, but decided against the few options available for different reasons. Two things were of key importance in my job search. FIRST (and foremost), I HAD to have group insurance. This is a must, because I am literally "un-insurable" as an individual. No insurance company anywhere will offer me individual insurance under any circumstances. Secondly, I REALLY liked the job I had and wanted to stay in the same field if possible. So, although I checked the want ads in the local paper - it is possible I overlooked other possible opportunities. Then again, as a Christian, I also firmly believed that God would provide me an opportunity that He wanted me to pursue, and I would know this opportunity when I saw it.

Now - as for the actual job I got. The friend that called me was a sales rep that traveled to ALL the hospitals in our rural area. I had asked him more than 2 months prior to this to let me know if he heard of any openings in any of the other hospitals he visited. One or two had come up, but were too far away for me to consider - as I would have had to move to accept them. Also, I knew the lady that had the job I now hold. Like I said, she had been at this hospital for over 30 yrs. While she was old enough to retire, there was absolutely NO indication whatsoever that she was ready to retire...and there was no reason to think the hospital would force her to retire. Small community hospitals around here just don't operate like that. What I didn't know at the time was that a corporation had recently purchased the hospital and brought in a new administrative staff. The new CFO and my predecessor did not get along from Day One, so the wheels were already set in motion for her dismissal. And in fact, she had already been "let go" by the time I finally prayed my "prayer of surrender" where I surrendered my problem to God completely and simply left it in His hands to solve.

As I mentioned before, it wasn't so much the fact that the job itself became available that made me feel God had directly intervened and answered my prayer....it was the TIMING by which I learned of the job. The fact is, the job was already available before I prayed that night, and I had taken the necessary steps to learn of the job by asking my friend to let me know if he heard of anything. Both of these events occurred long before I went to God in prayer that specific night, but I didn't learn any of the information until after surrendering the problem to God. In other words, it was like God had this job sitting there waiting on me....and was just waiting for me to come to Him in the proper attitude of humbleness and surrender in my prayer before telling me about it.

Originally posted by Maelakin: As for your illness, well…I’m not a doctor. =) I would be interested in what you were thinking at the time and what emotional state you were in while this was occurring. Please understand if anything here is offensive, no offense was intended. I’m just trying to get inside your head a bit and understand your experiences. =)

My illness has caused several problems for me over the years. They ranged in severity from mild flare-ups that simply caused me to have be close to a bathroom most of the time, to extreme flare-ups that led to very poor physical health, horrendous weight loss (I'm 6ft tall and dropped to 122lbs at one point), and chronic pain. I have gone for periods of up to 1.5 years where I literally hurt every single moment of every day. In those cases, I just had to learn to live with the pain and function as best as I could.

I've also had a total of 4 major surgeries due to my illness. The first surgery was to remove the diseased portion of my colon (large intestine) and re-connect the to two healthy portions. Four days after the initial surgery, my internal stitches came loose and I had to go back into the O.R. for emergency surgery to prevent life-threatening peritonitis from setting up in my system. Several years later was when the the really BAD episode occurred.

I had another major flare-up and had increased my medications to handle the symptoms of the disease. On a Monday morning at 10am, I suddenly felt as if a hot blade was ripping through my abdomen. I can honostly say that I know what the Japanese ritualistic suicide called seppuku feels like, because the Crohn's disease had literally killed off my entire colon and the whole thing ruptured just as surely as if it had been sliced with a sword blade. The pain was indescribable. It was obvious that I needed surgery immediately to correct the problem, but a series of poor judgements and decisions made by the doctor led to my surgery being delayed for 30 hours!!!

I mentioned the internal stitches pulling loose before and how serious that situation was. Well, that was like turning on a water faucet just enough to get a small trickle of water. By comparison, this episode was like grabbing the faucet handle and turning it on wide-open. The amount of damage being done to my body was incredible...and yet I had to suffer through that for 30 hours before finally getting into an O.R. where the situation could be fixed.

You asked what my emotional state was? I was worried, even a little scared. Out of ALL the episodes I've ever had, I knew this was the worst by far....and I also knew there was a chance I would NOT survive the operation. While I wasn't worried about what would happen after I die, I admit that I was not ready to make that journey at that time. I did say a prayer before being taken to the O.R., but I was still in so much pain that I couldn't really focus my thoughts to send a "strong prayer" to God. I managed to say a weak prayer before being wheeled into the O.R., and I gave a quick kiss to my wife and mom before being taken back. After that, I was wheeled into the O.R., prepped for surgery, and given the anesthesia that FINALLY knocked me unconscious and blessedly removed the pain. So my mental state was one of anxiousness, but also of acceptance. My life was in the hands of God and the surgeon and there was nothing else I could do to alter the outcome.

After being taken back into the O.R., I had no knowledge of any of the events taking place on my behalf. I had no knowledge of my wife and mom being told that the peritonitis was too rampant in my body to be fully contained and that it would spread to my bloodstream within 72 hours - which would be fatal. The surgeon had done all he could do, but in his own words, it simply wasn't enough to reverse the damage that had been done. Now it was just a matter of time, unless some miracle occurred to prevent the poison from spreading.

His exact words to my wife and mom when he came out of the O.R. were "Do you believe in miracles?". "Yes", they both replied. "That's good", he said "because a miracle is the only thing that will save him now." That's when my mom broke down and asked everyone there in the Waiting Room to join her in prayer that God would spare me. But I had no knowledge of this occurring. We also had no knowledge of the dozens and dozens of people back home who were also praying for me at that very same moment. The hospital where I work employed around 400 people. Many of my coworkers had called their pastors and fellow church members and requested "prayer chains" on my behalf. (A prayer chain is where several Christians contact each other to pray simultaneously for a desired outcome. The goal is to have as many Christians as possible praying for the same thing at the same time). From what I understand, most of the churches in my hometown had some type of prayer chain or group prayer going on my behalf...but again, I had no knowledge of any of this.

So in that case, God did not answer MY prayer...He answered all the OTHER prayers that were offered on my behalf. It's also worth noting that, when I woke up in the ICU after surgery, I knew instantly that God had healed me. I knew my Chrons had been removed (at least temporarily) and that I was going to make a full and speedy recovery. I knew this beyond any doubt as soon as I recovered enough to wake up from the anesthesia. I did not know what the surgeon had told my mom and wife...and they didn't tell me...because he had instructed them not to say anything to me about it. This led to a somewhat humorous encounter the next morning when a Catholic priest came by to give me Last Rites. We had a nice discussion, but he kept asking me if I wanted to "share" anything with him. I politily declined, but he asked again. All told, I "politily declined" confession 3 times before he ended his visit.

So I hope you can see why I feel I have a dynamic - and very personal relationship to God. The circumstance regarding my job might be explained away by some as mere coincidence or luck, but I could never "create" an imaginary friend of my own device that would be powerful enough to defy modern medical science. Remember, the surgeon didn't say "I've done all I can, now we will just have to wait and see." Instead, he said "I've done all I can, but it wasn't enough. It is only a matter of time before the poison spreads and kills him."

Fortunately, God had other plans for me and wasn't done with me yet.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Yorick: I would argue that it does. To my knowledge, Pantheism does not recognise a general universal awareness...

I guess the brand of Pantheism I have recently touched upon, that is generally followed by many Witches, Shamans, and Spiritualists, doesn't count... eh?

First, the consistency and measurability of my 'neo-pagan almagams' were put down as inferior compared to the teachings of the Christian faith.

Then our notion of Universal Deity couldn't possibly loves us compared to the almighty Christian God, because 'it' is too busy maturbating while the Christian God is making sweet love with all 'it's' followers.

And now our notion of Universal Diety isn't considered as even possibly being recognized as 'aware' although I have practically testified as such.

What's next?

Am I going to be unsubstantiably accused of attacking Christianity again as justification, like in the other thread, for all these words set down in oh such an 'innappropriate' educative tone? That's not going to work, because playing the victim to justify the attack only works if it is true. Find anywhere that I have attacked the personal practice and/or the personal belief of Christianity in the last two years and show some proof or I might ask for an apology.

Alas, You won't find any proof, because my personal problem with Christianity has evolved. I no longer feel the need to attack the personal practice and personal belief of Christianity. I have discovered the forgiving power symbolized by Christ and embodied in an individual as Christ Consciousness can apply to entire religions of many denominations and span thousands of years if need be. My recent and current interest in Christianity, like other organized religions, is one of intellectual curiosity, an understanding of human fallibility with regards to violent, oppressive, and bigoted radicalism & extremism, and the dualistic nature of things with regards to humans. I have no desire to attack or challenge Christians. I have no urge to engage Christians in a disrespectful manner, or compare my beleifs to theirs like some kind of religious pissing contest.

Cerek sumed up my belief best in another thread when he touched upon non-judgment with regards to a persons spiritual path and I whole heartedly agree. Imagine that, a Witch and Christian (Southern Baptist at that) practically have a common belief, a mutual understanding. I can think of no better reason to make statements of belief than to find common ground, so we may celebrate that in addition to our diversity. One of those lessons in duality I seek.

Patterns of behavior on recent threads have opened my eyes to another lesson in duality, the conundrum of being contradictory.

[Night Stalker]

But if everything and everyone were neutral, everything would be grey, and everyone would have the same oppinion (or at least non-confrontational ones)! That would be sooooo boring! Variety is the spice of life! Differing or even insulting oppinions make things interesting!

I'm gonna continue the mathmatical comparison in reguards to the Religious sets topic and the infinite being bounded.

Lets define Natural numbers as the set of all numbers where n>0. i.e. {1,2,3, ...}

Now lets define whole numbers as the of all numbers where n>=0. i.e. {0,1,2, ...} or {0, natural numbers} or all natural numbers plus 0.

blaa ... blaaa until we define Real numbers as all numbers that are able to be computationally solved. Note that this includes all subsets of numbers.

Imaginary numbers are all numbers that cannot be computationally solved. I only know of the square root of (-1).

Finally we get the Super Set of Complex Numbers being the set of all Real and all Imaginary Numbers!

Whew! Ok so how does this relate to religion? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Christianity is a set of beliefs that has one deity. (Argueably one could label Christianity polytheistic, but that is another debate.)
Islam is a set of beliefs that has one deity.
Monotheism is the set of all belief systems with one deity.

Ancient Greek Ethos is a set of beliefs that has many deities.
Babalonian Ethos is a set of beliefs that has a different set of many deities.
Polytheism is the set of all belief systems that have many deities.

Atheism is the set of beliefs that is absent of a deity.

Religion is the Super Set of all belief systems.

All I'm saying is, call it a generic world view, call it Scooby Doo for all I care, since pantheism is an "ism", it is a system of beliefs. Therefore, downplaying it as a religion is the same thing as downplaying Christianity.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: All I'm saying is, call it a generic world view, call it Scooby Doo for all I care, since pantheism is an "ism", it is a system of beliefs. Therefore, downplaying it as a religion is the same thing as downplaying Christianity.

I don't believe in ISM's, I only believe in ME.

Oh, and nice post.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: I would argue that it does. To my knowledge, Pantheism does not recognise a general universal awareness...

I guess the brand of Pantheism I have recently touched upon, that is generally followed by many Witches, Shamans, and Spiritualists, doesn't count... eh?

First, the consistency and measurability of my 'neo-pagan almagams' were put down as inferior compared to the teachings of the Christian faith.

Then our notion of Universal Deity couldn't possibly loves us compared to the almighty Christian God, because 'it' is too busy maturbating while the Christian God is making sweet love with all 'it's' followers.

And now our notion of Universal Diety isn't considered as even possibly being recognized as 'aware' although I have practically testified as such.
[/QUOTE]Oh well now I'm confused. I had included your words in my assertion. You distinctly distanced yourself from a Creator personality monotheism declares as existing. Perhaps I used an incorrect choice of words to describe the point I was making. "Aware" is perhaps too limited. Why don't you define it for me then?

I have never read anywhere that Brahma had a conversation with Brahman (the universal consciousness). But, maybe I'm wrong. I never read Buddha speaking about communicating with the Universal entity, only about him perceiving himself as being one with the universal enitity.

It was my understanding that under Hinduism, Brahma created everything, but was still part of what he created. Still a part of Brahman. I wasn't aware you percieved Brahman to have a personality like we have a personality. To have self awareness like we have self awareness, or like YHWH has a personality or self awareness.

If I'm wrong I'm sorry. I certainly didn't mean to offend, and aplogise for my poor chice of words.