"Religion stops a thinking mind...it is only another socially acceptable addiction."

[Larry_OHF]

Too many feelings are being hurt in this thread, mine included, so I feel that this craziness should stop. This battle of I am right, you are wrong will never be solved here, and only injures the friendships that this website has aided in building across the continents.

In my psychology class, I learned that people have an mental process that causes us to have a bias. Everybody in the world has a bias about a particular thing, even if it is as simple as which soft drink is the best. Therefore, our natural biases prohibit us from accepting other truths or other opinions because we have a natural desire to feel comfortable in constancy, and anything that is presented to the brain that goes against our familiar constancy is viewed as incorrect, even if on the subconscious level. Therefore, our minds try to reason out the idea that our own personal thoughts are the right ones, and we end up finding reasons to dispute all other claims, regardless on whether or not that claim is indeed a fact or not.

There is sufficient reason to close this thread down and ask Ziroc to place another ban on all religion discussions. Is that what we want to happen? Since I am personally involved in this topic, I cannot make a moderating decision, so just take my words for what they are and not with any weight on them. I am not closing the thread because I do not think that I should be allowed to, under the circumstances, but I will be expecting the other moderators to come and read this material and decide for themselves.

[Faceman]

If this thread should be closed it would be fine with me. It has run far off-topic and the bickering about right or wrong (fueled by me too )has become pettier with every post.
I think that a lot of people are growing weary of this thread anyway and as there is still another religion thread open which also has gone off-topic but not run down like this one it would not be a great loss.
So let me say "sorry" and I'm outta here.

[ 10-30-2003, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Faceman ]

as a non-moderator i have no authority, and as a participant in the discussion, i have a bias (in the very psychological sense you just described, larry!)

however, if the opinions of the participants count for anything, i'd like to see these types of discussions continue to be allowed. i find it personally rewarding and enriching to compare ideas and thoughts, or just read about those of others.

i accept, and expect, passions to come through, but realise the need to draw the line somewhere. perhaps just a stern warning to pull us all back into line?

alternately, perhaps a regious topics forum, no holds-barred?

[img]graemlins/fight.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/whipitgood.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/moon.gif[/img]

[img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Faceman.

Consider a family. They all have the same name, "Roberts" and know who the family is. They have the same father and mother, come from the same place, but live sperately now and get together on occaisions for big parties.

Consider another person.. they have the same last name as those of the family. Another Mr. Roberts.

Other people, say "oh... they have the same last name! They must all be related"

The single person, knows they are not part of the family, but, they may also be unaware that all the other Roberts are related, because, like them, they are living in seperate houses.

However, The Roberts family exists. They are connected in a way that they all appreciate, even though those on the outside cannot.

It is the same with the Christian Church. The "Body of Christ" Gods "family of children".

How externals perceive the matter is to a degree moot.

At any combined churches meeting, and any multidenominational meeting you will find members of the Christian Churches, but not Mormons or JWs.

The seperation is palpable. Now you can live with preconception, or you can hear what I'm saying, as a person who has lived and worshipped in numerous denominations in various countries.

Both Mormons and Christians agree they are not part of the same family, so it is up to you whether you want to mistakenly refer to us all as being the one thing, or use language to create differenciation so clarity and understanding are encouraged.

Personally I don't see why "Mormon" or Latter Day Saint" isn't good enough. There are people who will just call themselves simply "Catholic".

What's the big deal? Call the spade a spade. They're not part of the pre-existing Christian Church. They're not Christian? What's the diff?

[Faceman]

I'd also like religious threads (like the famous "Contradictions in the Bible" thread) to continue, but this one seems to be (un)dead already to me.

[Yorick]

keep it alive, keep it open... on the phone..... more later

[Faceman]

Yorick,
we can continue throwing metaphors that fit our point of view at each other, but frankly I grow weary of it.
I think we should agree to disagree.
Especially for me it really doesn't matter personally as there are only very little Mormons in Austria. Should I ever come across them I just won't touch that subject and talk about the weather or something and I should be fine [img]smile.gif[/img]
The last posts all were about proving a point when the only one is that we both have a point ("of view" at least ).
So, bye and see you at another thread (presumably the second religion thread ) soon. [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

So here's a question Faceman.

What word(s) do you use if you want to describe the collection of (non Mormon or non JW) Christian Churches that share common ideology, bible and theology when you want to refer to them singularly?

When I want to refer to all those Christian Churches that rejected Catholicism, I use the word "Protestant". Catholics and Orthodox are not protestant. If I want to use a word to define Chruches or Christians that have a heavy emphasis on Spiritual gifts such as prophecy and tongues, I'll use the word "Pentecostal." There are Pentecostal Catholics, Pentecostal Anglicans, and Pentecostal Churches.

If I want to refer to all of them, I'll use the word Christian.

But you are telling me that that includes Mormons and JWs. So what do I use, when I want to refer to the family of believers that doesn't include them?

Either way, someone has to use or invent a term if we're going to have consice descriptive language with meaning and clarity.

===============


As to the thread... I don't care if it goes offtopic. I started it... doesn't that count? I LOVE IT when threads go offtopic. Best part about the internet discussion if you ask me. You can SEE the flow of human conversation.

How many times, during a verbal chat do you end up saying..."How did we get to this topic?"

Well, on a tolerant forum you can see for yourself. It's fun.

I've never been a fan of "Oh it's offtopic, close it". Defeats the whole point IMO.


================

As for the "right/wrong" I'm not saying Mormons don't love God, or are even wrong. Just that they aren't part of the Christian Church... which has already been admitted.

I'm simply saying, If that's been admitted, why not use a different name? [img]smile.gif[/img]

That's all. No offense intended nor needed.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Faceman: Yorick, we can continue throwing metaphors that fit our point of view at each other, but frankly I grow weary of it. I think we should agree to disagree. Especially for me it really doesn't matter personally as there are only very little Mormons in Austria. Should I ever come across them I just won't touch that subject and talk about the weather or something and I should be fine [img]smile.gif[/img] The last posts all were about proving a point when the only one is that we both have a point ("of view" at least ). So, bye and see you at another thread (presumably the second religion thread ) soon. [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

Well there you go. If it matters so little to you, why the big deal? It matters a lot to me. So many have misconceptions about Christianity. This just adds feul to the fire of confusion. Requires more clarification.

Peoples lives are at stake Faceman. People literally get saved from death when they come to know Jesus. The number I know in that case are countless.

It may be small to you, but to me, it can be the difference between a person getting off substance abuse or not.

[Maelakin]

Larry,

The paragraph you posted pertaining to psychology is so true. In fact, if you look through a lot of the posts in the current religion threads, you will see where some people have tried, to no avail sometimes, to point that out.

One of the reasons many people’s feelings become injured in these types of discussions and why a lot of them turn into just senseless bickering is because people have an innate desire to believe. When we choose to believe in something, we usually do so to a flaw. Think back to how many times people have pointed something out to you in life and you refused to believe them. Remember how it came back to bite you in the ass? This is no different.

Even so, it is vital to the growth of the human species to be able to freely discuss and argue our beliefs. Believe it or not, even when things turn into mess you can still learn. Look at a post Yorick made recently pertaining to how he was acting. He learned from reading his own posts!!

Maybe once in awhile people just need to realize that we don’t have the answers and are discussing very personal topics. We need to occasionally point ourselves to the first sticky in the forum.