oh dear, i seemto be a power gamer

[shadowhound]

Lesson learnt from Indemaijinj:

Next character see if I can get
30% resistance to falling whales

[Radek]

Therefore, if I uderstand well then it is "cheezy" to prepare yourself for a tough fight ahead. Well, can anyone tell me, which criteria should I use for selection of spells when I am going to rest? Rolling dices? Memorizing the spells with nicest icons?
No. I daresay we all will select spells which we will need after the rest. This is not all, we will often rest before a tough battle because we will want to replenish our resources before the battle. In the other words, we all are playing "cheezy".
I don't think it's "cheezy" to prepare yourself before a tough battle. Quite the opposite, it's completely normal to prepare yourself. I daresay it's a quite strange idea to jump in the middle of a pack of Umber Hulks, get dominated, and then try to rest there so as we get some Chaotic Commands spells to counter the Chaos spells of the hulks. Let us note that restarting the game does not help here: the restarted game returns your characters BEFORE the battle so that your characters do not know again that the hulks are waiting for them and they have no reason to memorize Chaotic Commands. Trying to approach the hulks and cast Detect Evil is "cheezy" because it's YOU who knows where to cast the spell and not your characters [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Barry the Sprout]

Powergaming isn't the same thing as cheese. Cheese is using loop-holes in the game to do things that you couldn't possibly do in real life. Like set traps around someone and then wait for them to become hostile, or casting cloudkill on someone and then shutting the door on them because of course NPC's can't open doors... that would be just plain stupid...

[Vedran]

When you get to a new area, use tracking (ToB installed), stealthed thief or invisible anyone to explore it. Elegant solution.
Powergaming is when you lose a fight, then load and use all kind of spells and abilities before it in order to win.
Roleplaying means ignoring bad AI, engine limitations, bugs; pretending that you are that character you created and act according to it.

[Lemmy]

Indemaijinj:
"Here is an example of a P'n'P 3rd ed cheese tactic:
[Snip whale anecdote]
This was clearly not what was intended with this spell, but it worked."

This seems more like innovation to me. It'd be cheesy if it *shouldn't* be used that way, and I didn't see a reason why not. You used a spell brilliantly in a situation that permitted it.

Not Cheese: When resting in hostile areas, if I have any Animate Deads left I cast them before resting. The Skels last 8 or 9 hours. This way, if I'm interrupted I'll have defenders ready right away. Smart spell use.

Cheese: (I don't recall if this works, though if it does, it's cheese.) Summoning things that last only a few *rounds* to protect me during sleep. Unless something hungry came upon my sleeping party within 30 seconds of nodding off, the summons really should've expired during the nap.

Radek:
"I daresay it's a quite strange idea to jump in the middle of a pack of Umber Hulks, get dominated, and then try to rest there so as we get some Chaotic Commands spells to counter the Chaos spells of the hulks."

The cheese here comes in two parts:
1) Having divine foreknowledge of what's coming to expertly select spells
2) Casting the spells before combat, because you again know what's coming and exactly *when* it's coming

And you're right, it's cheesy to do that. I disagree that we all do it because we can't get around it, however. You can handle the situation without needing that divine foreknowledge. Some ways of doing it:

1) Scout with Farsight, Wizard Eye, or an Invisible/Stealthed character so your party *does* know what's coming
2) Rush headlong into trouble and run away! Come back prepared.
3) Rush into battle and, by some stroke of luck and/or strategy, triumph!

4) Keep certain spells memorized at all times, no matter what the situation. In the case of Chaotic Commands, you can justify this on the idea that you really hate having people Dominated. (It's what I do!) Death Spell is another excellent choice to keep memorized all the time - you never know when an enemy might have really annoying summons. Stoneskin. Etc.

5) Always cast the spell after resting. Stoneskin is an excellent example. Chaotic Commands lasts 1 turn/level, so you can easily justify casting it as a protective "after rest" spell - no matter where you are.

You need not play the game with omniscience to succeed. If you're careful, you can even avoid making (too much) (ab)use of the Bhaalspawn ability "Reload Omniscience."

-Lem

[Radek]

To Barry the Sprout. Yes, I agree. A piece of cheese equals taking advantage from an evident bug or an evident misunderdanding in the game. Examples: the Fake Talk method (every round is 6 seconds in BG2), the Feeblemind method (the dragon does not react when you cast Feeblemind on him) and so on. Preparing for a battle is nothing that should be disagreed.

To Vedran. I cannot agree. Let us return to the example with the Umber Hulks. Let us suppose that they have surprised us. Some of our people got dominated. I agree that an immediate restart is not a good style. Let us fight. Suppose we lose the fight. What to do? Banging our heads against a wall and trying and losing again? I think we'd better cast Chaotic Commands now. I can't call it "powergaming" or "cheese".

[pritchke]

For situations like dominated characters I usually have a several spells like Oliluke's Resilient Sphere or Hold ready to take care of them. The thing I like about these spells is they are flexible in use especialy the Oliluke's Resilient Sphere. Who doesn't hate being dominated? One of your own team mates are usually the one who does the most damage. It should last long enough for dominate, charm etc to wear off.

[ 12-03-2002, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Indemaijinj]

Yeah, it's always either the guy with the big sword or the one with all the healing spells.

[SixOfSpades]

Great PnP stories, Indemaijini!

I haven't played PnP in about 15 years, but I did hear one famous story making the rounds:

An adventuring party had one of their members accused of some terrible crime and placed in a high-security prison. The rest of the party was able to get to the door of his cell and speak to him, but they couldn't get him out: Whoever had designed the prison had rightly anticipated the chance of breakouts, so there was no way the party could have picked the lock, used Knock to blast it open, or summon a beastie powerful enough to break the door down. (Perhaps it was even a dead-magic zone.)

What they did instead was far more classic: The door had a narrow slot in the bottom, just big enough to slide in a tray for food. A Pixie might have fit through, but certainly not the guy they were trying to rescue. So......they slipped most of their Bag of Holding though the slot, keeping a firm grip on the part of the Bag that remained outside the cell. Their incarcerated party member happily climbed inside the Bag and closed it, and was pulled, safe and sound, through the slot to freedom. (Good thing it wasn't a Bag of Devouring!)