From 'gook' to 'raghead'

[shamrock_uk]

I just stumbled across this in the debates and discussions thread of another forum.

I'm not really sure how representative this is, but if it is then it indicates that attitudes haven't really changed since the Vietnam war.

The story is from here.

OP-ED COLUMNIST From 'Gook' to 'Raghead' By BOB HERBERT Published: May 2, 2005 Op-Ed Columnist: From 'Gook' to 'Raghead' Go to Complete List I spent some time recently with Aidan Delgado, a 23-year-old religion major at New College of Florida, a small, highly selective school in Sarasota. On the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, before hearing anything about the terror attacks that would change the direction of American history, Mr. Delgado enlisted as a private in the Army Reserve. Suddenly, in ways he had never anticipated, the military took over his life. He was trained as a mechanic and assigned to the 320th Military Police Company in St. Petersburg. By the spring of 2003, he was in Iraq. Eventually he would be stationed at the prison compound in Abu Ghraib. Mr. Delgado's background is unusual. He is an American citizen, but because his father was in the diplomatic corps, he grew up overseas. He spent eight years in Egypt, speaks Arabic and knows a great deal about the various cultures of the Middle East. He wasn't happy when, even before his unit left the states, a top officer made wisecracks about the soldiers heading off to Iraq to kill some ragheads and burn some turbans. "He laughed," Mr. Delgado said, "and everybody in the unit laughed with him." The officer's comment was a harbinger of the gratuitous violence that, according to Mr. Delgado, is routinely inflicted by American soldiers on ordinary Iraqis. He said: "Guys in my unit, particularly the younger guys, would drive by in their Humvee and shatter bottles over the heads of Iraqi civilians passing by. They'd keep a bunch of empty Coke bottles in the Humvee to break over people's heads." He said he had confronted guys who were his friends about this practice. "I said to them: 'What the hell are you doing? Like, what does this accomplish?' And they responded just completely openly. They said: 'Look, I hate being in Iraq. I hate being stuck here. And I hate being surrounded by hajis.' " "Haji" is the troops' term of choice for an Iraqi. It's used the way "gook" or "Charlie" was used in Vietnam. Mr. Delgado said he had witnessed incidents in which an Army sergeant lashed a group of children with a steel Humvee antenna, and a Marine corporal planted a vicious kick in the chest of a kid about 6 years old. There were many occasions, he said, when soldiers or marines would yell and curse and point their guns at Iraqis who had done nothing wrong. He said he believes that the absence of any real understanding of Arab or Muslim culture by most G.I.'s, combined with a lack of proper training and the unrelieved tension of life in a war zone, contributes to levels of fear and rage that lead to frequent instances of unnecessary violence. Mr. Delgado, an extremely thoughtful and serious young man, balked at the entire scene. "It drove me into a moral quagmire," he said. "I walked up to my commander and gave him my weapon. I said: 'I'm not going to fight. I'm not going to kill anyone. This war is wrong. I'll stay. I'll finish my job as a mechanic. But I'm not going to hurt anyone. And I want to be processed as a conscientious objector.' " He stayed with his unit and endured a fair amount of ostracism. "People would say I was a traitor or a coward," he said. "The stuff you would expect." In November 2003, after several months in Nasiriya in southern Iraq, the 320th was redeployed to Abu Ghraib. The violence there was sickening, Mr. Delgado said. Some inmates were beaten nearly to death. The G.I.'s at Abu Ghraib lived in cells while most of the detainees were housed in large overcrowded tents set up in outdoor compounds that were vulnerable to mortars fired by insurgents. The Army acknowledges that at least 32 Abu Ghraib detainees were killed by mortar fire. Mr. Delgado, who eventually got conscientious objector status and was honorably discharged last January, recalled a disturbance that occurred while he was working in the Abu Ghraib motor pool. Detainees who had been demonstrating over a variety of grievances began throwing rocks at the guards. As the disturbance grew, the Army authorized lethal force. Four detainees were shot to death. Mr. Delgado confronted a sergeant who, he said, had fired on the detainees. "I asked him," said Mr. Delgado, "if he was proud that he had shot unarmed men behind barbed wire for throwing stones. He didn't get mad at all. He was, like, 'Well, I saw them bloody my buddy's nose, so I knelt down. I said a prayer. I stood up, and I shot them down.' " E-mail: bobherb@nytimes.com

[Morgeruat]

interesting. When I was in Kuwait the other guys used Haji and LBD* as a nickname for TCNs**, but I heard Sand N****r and raghead more than once. (about 5 years ago)


*Little Blue Dude (since they wore blue jumpsuits)
**third country nationals, the migrant workers

[johnny]

So what are you saying pommie ?

[krunchyfrogg]

... a top officer made wisecracks about the soldiers heading off to Iraq to kill some ragheads and burn some turbans. "He laughed," Mr. Delgado said, "and everybody in the unit laughed with him." ... E-mail: bobherb@nytimes.com

[/QUOTE]

Personally, I think it's a good idea to hate someone you're being told to kill in a war. As for the gratuitous violence detailed in this editorial, I don't think anybody can defend that.

I will say one thing, though, being a New Yorker: This is an editorial, not a report, written in the NY Times. Regardless of your own political opinions, it's a fact that the Times is an extremely liberal-biased paper. And everybody knows that most liberals are against the war in Iraq (and many non-Libs too). Take this (and most things you read) with a grain of salt.

[Seraph]

I'm not really sure how representative this is, but if it is then it indicates that attitudes haven't really changed since the Vietnam war.

People have had disparaging names for their enemies for a long time before Vietnam. Allied soldiers had names like "Krauts" for the Germans in WWII, and "Ruskie" for the Russians in the cold war. If you go back to the 18th and 19th century you'd probably get things like French "Frogs" and British "Lobsterbacks".

War is one of those things that manages to remain disturbingly constant while the rest of the world changes.

[ 05-07-2005, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Seraph ]

[Davros]

Originally posted by krunchyfrogg: quote: ... a top officer made wisecracks about the soldiers heading off to Iraq to kill some ragheads and burn some turbans. "He laughed," Mr. Delgado said, "and everybody in the unit laughed with him." ... E-mail: bobherb@nytimes.com

Personally, I think it's a good idea to hate someone you're being told to kill in a war. As for the gratuitous violence detailed in this editorial, I don't think anybody can defend that.

I will say one thing, though, being a New Yorker: This is an editorial, not a report, written in the NY Times. Regardless of your own political opinions, it's a fact that the Times is an extremely liberal-biased paper. And everybody knows that most liberals are against the war in Iraq (and many non-Libs too). Take this (and most things you read) with a grain of salt. [/QUOTE]While there is something to what you say about the NYT, your dismissiveness is way to casual and you make no structured argument against what the article says. Dismissiveness of the source is easy. It's the same as me telling everyone that Krunchfrogg's opinions have an overtly conservative bent, that it is rumoured that he is a war lover and hates Iragii's, and that people everywhere should take what he just said (and most things you read) with a grain of salt.

See whay I mean - what I just said is as great a pile of tosh as what you just said. The argument just doesn't stack up ole bean [img]smile.gif[/img] .

[ 05-07-2005, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Davros ]

[Timber Loftis]

Look, having spent half of my day at the Vietnam Veterans' Art Museum, I'd have to say that you'd garner little, if any, sympathy from me by evoking the word "gook." Simple enough.

[wellard]

General five star to troops .... I want you to kill the enemy using extreme aggression and show no mercy

Oh but if I hear any of you saying nasty things about them we will charge you?

[krunchyfrogg]

Originally posted by Davros: It's the same as me telling everyone that Krunchfrogg's opinions have an overtly conservative bent, that it is rumoured that he is a war lover and hates Iragii's, and that people everywhere should take what he just said (and most things you read) with a grain of salt. [/QB]

You should. But don't limit it to me. Everyone has an opinion, and it will make it into whatever they're writing, whether it's intentional or not.

[shamrock_uk]

Originally posted by wellard: General five star to troops .... I want you to kill the enemy using extreme aggression and show no mercy Oh but if I hear any of you saying nasty things about them we will charge you?

Well, it was more the random violence I was trying to highlight - the title just came from the article. [img]smile.gif[/img] I quite agree that would be silly.

It could be argued that the name-calling contributes to a lack of professionalism which makes abuses more likely to happen though...

How was the museum Timber? Is it artwork done by the veteran's themselves or commemerative stuff from other artists?

[ 05-07-2005, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]