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Old 11-02-2000, 07:08 PM   #1
RPGVET
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Hi, y'all
In more than a decade of gaming, i haven't seen a more disturbing hitpoints generator than in W&W. Most of the time
1 hp, regardless. Ok, i started the game anew and spent hours in the character generator giving most of the party
a fortitude of 18. But still... Listen, you don't put values from 1..n in a RPG. Characters DO get 12 hp's - but
what a hassle ! (I just spent an hour reloading my paladin's lvlup - and i'm not talking about "primary" elite lvls).
Here's an example how to do it right:
Say, a male Paladin, human, fortitude 18. Gets 8 to 12 hp's. Always at least 8. 9 with a 80% chance. 10 -70% chance.
11 - 60% chance. 12 - 50% chance. Other characters accordingly. Mages traditionally have half the hp's of the fighter
class, thieves 70-80%. Race/class bonus or penalty should be fixed values (+1, -1..). But in W&W its totally mixed-
my female pixie wizard has got more hp's than my fem. elven wizard ! Whoever wrote that code should be boiled in
dung oil!(w7 pun intended). Whatever heuristic park intended (if anything..)- they only managed to take out the fun
of one of the most rewarding experiences in an RPG: Levelling up characters. Could this be improved in a patch ?
(P.S. No, i don't want to cheat- no fun to me)
 
Old 11-03-2000, 10:10 AM   #2
Wyvern
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Leveling up is disappointing in this game.
I believe it says somewhere in the manual (which I found difficult to read because of the gray paper) that when you've changed character class the character will get only a minimum of hit point increases until the new class level reaches the previous class level. I don't think that was a great design idea. The object if for players to have FUN, afterall.

Wyv
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Old 11-03-2000, 02:56 PM   #3
Kate
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I agree this part of the program is a disappointment. I've seen other people say that it will eventually even out and you will suddenly start getting more hitpoints, but surely you need help at the beginning, when the characters are low level and weak? I have spent hours re-loading just to try to improve the hitpoint rolls a bit (and no I don't mean to get maximum points, just to try to get more than 1).It gets rather tedious and takes some of the fun out of the game.
Some games I have seen recently (possibly one of the Baldurs Gate series, I don't remember) have a setting in "options" where you can set for maximum hit points when you level up...because they know that everyone saves and just re-loads until they get a good result...we all do it! I thought it was rather a good idea. You still have the option not to use it if you consider it to be "cheating".
pushing a lot of points into intelligence has obvious benefits - why not fortitude?
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Old 11-03-2000, 05:50 PM   #4
skywalker
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From The Strategy Guide:
"The number of Hit Points you gain when leveling up is actually quite complex. It is not a simple process whereby dice are rolled and that amount is automatically credited to the account. Instead, Hit Points are rerolled whenever a character makes a level-if the new total is lees than the character's current Hit Points, the character is only awarded one hit point-this ensures proper balance throughout the game, and that all similar characters will have reasonably consistent Hit Points. It should be noted that many factors are evaluated to determine how many Hit Points a character should have.
It is possible to save a game before you level up and then keep re-loading until you get a result that you consider favorable. However, in the long run a character's Hit Point total will average out so this tactic mat be self-defeating and time consuming." Author Sion Rodriguez y Gibson
I usually reroll not because of 1 hit point, but usually if I get only 1 attribute point.
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Old 11-03-2000, 07:03 PM   #5
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The hit point system seems almost the same as in previous wizardry games. A guy wrote a message to me explaining the system pretty well...and this also means that when you replay level ups to try to get a higher number that you are mostly wasting your time. Here is the formulas .. This also explains why when you change class that it seems it takes a while to start getting more than one hitpoint - typically you'd have to reach the level of the previous class.. "Regis" explained this stuff ..

***
Hit points are re-rolled on every level. If your present HP exceeds the
rolled value, you only get 1. Resetting will cause a new roll to be
performed, HOWEVER, considering that the more levels you reset to get a max
HP addition, the lower the percentage chance that you will get a max roll on
the next level, you are more or less working towards a virtual impossibility
of getting extra HP on each successive level. IE, considering a 4-sided die:

Level 2 - 2d4 - 37.5% chance to get 6 or higher (6 out of 16)
Level 3 - 3d4 - 31.25% chance to get 9 or higher (20 out of 64)
Level 4 - 4d4 - 25.78% chance to get 12 or higher (66 out of 256)
Level 5 - 5d5 - 11.82% chance to get 16 or higher (121 out of 1024)

What this means is that if you reset every time you level in order to get 75%
or more of your Maximum Hit Points, by the time you are trying this for level
4 (only the third time you've levelled), you have a 1 in 4 chance at best of
getting enough HP to keep you at that Max %. By level 5, 1 in 9. Since
bonus from Stats (Fortitude) is applied unilaterally, it doesn't really
figure into the equation (HP Range would change from "Minimum to Maximum" to
"(Minimum + Bonus) to (Maximum + Bonus)"). The percentages get worse if
you use a greater-sided die, which I'm sure they do.
 
Old 11-04-2000, 04:01 PM   #6
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Thanks to you all for your replies !

Wyvern: I thought i made myself clear. Read my post again. Btw, after i left the forum and started up the game again,
i immediately clicked on my paladin's lvlup and whoosh! received 13 hp's. Ain't that rich ?

Kate: I doubt it will level out. If i accepted all 1st rolls of my fighter/paladin, he'd have an average of 3 hp's
per lvl by now. I too don't go for max hp's , just want a reasonable amount. Yeah, that would be a nice option for
all RPG's (max out). Yep, intelligence works. Thought so too.

skywalker: You don't need the stragey guide for that information. It's also provided in the readme. Don't care for
ability points myself -that is after i've reached the stats for a desired Elite Role. You can train some of them, too.

jdawg: Great post ! Thanks a bunch ! This sheds some light on this dubious matter. But it's not at all like wiz7. There, you could bet your ass your fighter/Lord would get an average of 9 hp's/lvl, even with a constitution (fortitude) lower than 18. Of course re-rolling that much is a waste of time. I still don' like the sytem.
Just what i suspected : Bad design and shoddy programming. It's frustrating and patronizing the player: "Oh dear, WE know best how many hp's a 10th lvl Samurai should have..trust us." Well, i don't. Consider this: If they want a character to have a certain amount of hp's at a certain lvl, why "roll" at all ? Why not use fixed values, then ? Why add this stupid, redundant code ?

To all: Just so you know, i'm not a hp-fetishist. I know the RPG-chores all too well to understand even a titanic amount won't save your ass somtimes. But nearly every goddamn time at lvlup facing the bleak grin of 1 measly hp makes me sick !
It haunts me in my dreams ! Aaaahaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa !

.....................................

Aah, that's better. Just gulped a stiff drink. Like i said in my starting post, they took out the fun/reward. The way i
see it, Heuristic Park whacks me over the head for buying/playing their game. So far, this game is big fun too me, but
this feature really adds a sour taste.
 
Old 11-08-2000, 07:35 AM   #7
Le Bon
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RPGVET, you speak right off my mind. This 1HP thing makes me sick. I am now keeping book on who of my heroes gets a level in which role and after finishing a game session I distribute HPs on my own. I.E. a barbar gets 10 hp for every 1hp-level a warrior 8 HP and so on. It spares me lots of frustration on reloading over and over again.
But I hope they will fix this annoying behavior in a patch.
 
Old 11-08-2000, 01:18 PM   #8
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I don't reload for low hit points. Once, my character got 64 in one level. Yes, 64. The game is too easy, in my opinion, to get too hung up on hit points. It does level out in the long run.

I agree strongly, however, if their intention was to level out rolls, they should have awarded a static amount. Constant rerolling leads a lot of people to drink.
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Old 11-10-2000, 03:05 PM   #9
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Like skywalker I go for the extra attributes if I keep getting only 1 hp and my class is the highest (i.e., not catching up to previous class levels). I notice you usually get the max hit points when you first level up so I always save that one (under a different name). Wiz 7 was the same. Occasionally you will match this extra hp total but rarely (I did get my paladin +19 on a re-toss once). When you reload it seems hard to match the first toss, I usually give up after 4 or so attempts to see if there is a pattern before going back to the first toss.
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