Imoen Same-Sex Romance

[Azred]

Galadria is correct--Irenicus is a foul creature. Remember that he has been stripped of some (if not all) of his original soul, his former love and former people have turned against him because of his actions, his former gods have punished him, and he has had everything he desires placed beyond his grasp. He is now more desperate, more obsessed, more power-hungry, more cruel, and more depraved than you can hope to be. Imagine the worst thing that one person can do to another; Irenicus can, has, and will do worse than that.
Irenicus wants to own Imoen, to break her spirit completely, because only then can she become the perfect tool he needs to perfect the process of activating and drawing out the essence of Bhaal from you. Once he has finished with you, he will toss Imoen's soul to Bodhi (she is just a convenient ally, so she may have leftovers). Anyone who fails to comprehend just how sick and evil this character is doesn't understand him.
Finally, he doesn't want Imoen, the PC (you), or Ellesime to die. He wants all of you to live after he has accomplished his goals. He wants Ellesime to stay in Suldanesselar. Why? Thomas Covenant said it best: "How do you hurt a man who has lost everything? Give him back something broken."

[Gabriel]

quote:

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Originally posted by Azred:
Galadria is correct--Irenicus is a foul creature. Remember that he has been stripped of some (if not all) of his original soul, his former love and former people have turned against him because of his actions, his former gods have punished him, and he has had everything he desires placed beyond his grasp. He is now more desperate, more obsessed, more power-hungry, more cruel, and more depraved than you can hope to be. Imagine the worst thing that one person can do to another; Irenicus can, has, and will do worse than that.
Irenicus wants to own Imoen, to break her spirit completely, because only then can she become the perfect tool he needs to perfect the process of activating and drawing out the essence of Bhaal from you. Once he has finished with you, he will toss Imoen's soul to Bodhi (she is just a convenient ally, so she may have leftovers). Anyone who fails to comprehend just how sick and evil this character is doesn't understand him.
Finally, he doesn't want Imoen, the PC (you), or Ellesime to die. He wants all of you to live after he has accomplished his goals. He wants Ellesime to stay in Suldanesselar. Why? Thomas Covenant said it best: "How do you hurt a man who has lost everything? Give him back something broken."

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HE doesn't want to own anything all he wants reveange all he wants from Imoen for is her goddly soul the rest doesn't matter. He doesn't need to own her from that the same way he doesn't need to own you, he just ripped the soul from thier bodies with out a thought or care other then fulling his quest.
So he doesn't desire to own her or break her spirit because it will make no difference when he steals her soul, your spirit is not broken, nor does her own you and he still steals our soul.
Jon has no feelings other then hate and a single perpouse to become a god, he will stop at nothing to achive this goal even if it meant Bhodi's death.
He takes no pleasure in kill maining or other vices, he doesn't even feel pleasure anymore.
Now answer me this he doesn't need to break her spirit or take pleasure in the act so why would he rape her?
By coldly killing people and cutting Khild into small pieces and well cutting her up, not to mention what ever he did when he fiddled with her brain he exposes her to death, suffering and pain enough to break down her defense and all the Bhaal power to surface enough to steal.

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: Gabriel ]

[Lucifer Lord of demons]

Gabriel you are PISSING ME OFF!!!!
You are entiteled to your opinion as Galadria is to hers. If you don't like the idea of this romance(and i think you don't) then stop posting here. Avoid the subject altogether and stop saying he doesn't rape her because you ARE NOT sure. O.K!!! Now Could you just stop saying stuff as though you are sure of everything O.K?

(Sorry Memnoch if you think i'm flaming but i just don't Give a FU*% (don't read the but i just...))

[Azred]

Lucifer, please! Let us not demean 1) this forum, 2) Galadria's thread, or 3) yourself by becoming upset to the point of foul language. Yes, sometimes people are irritating, but that is just life; if certain people choose not to understand the ideas behind the Imoen Same-Sex Romance and choose not to 1) support it or 2) offer constructive criticism then that is their problem.
If you read through the entire thread, you will see that I didn't post anything until I thought that clarifications about Irenicus' motivations needed to be stated; since then, I have tried to offer any ideas I have to Galadria and her colleague Columbus.
Needless to say, when someone's posts becomes bothersome do as I do--refuse to respond to anything they post again. Simple.

Let's all save Memnoch the trouble and police ourselves, yes?

[Lucifer Lord of demons]

sorry (runs away as Mem and Ziroc approach)

[Whailor]

I agree with Gabriel. There's no doubt that Jon is a bastard and all that, but as Gabriel also said, his goal is to "lit" the Bhaalspawn fire in Imoen, who wasn't even aware that she is a Bhaalspawn. Sorry but rape would be last thing which would "light" the spirit up. If anything it would only douse it. What is sure is that he did "tests" with all of the peope there, by killing someone or something, looking at their reactions; cutting bodies and looking again and something gave Imoen away. Minsc is pretty straightforward and it was probably clear pretty soon that he has nothing to do with Bhaal. The main char was a clear example and Jon was testing his/her limits. He knew that the main char is a Bhaalspawn and also pretty "powerful" in his way. So he saved him/her for himself.

Tests with others were probably just that, tests, so it probably came as a somewhat surprise to Jon that Imoen apparently appeared to be the Bhaalspawn too. So, she was just the bonus to Bodhi. Being the undead (vampire) Bodhi already extended her life, but she also lost the goals what Irenicus had. Goals as such are tied to soul and she didn't have any. Irenicus saw that and did not turn into undead, but continued his "search". I suppose that if Imoen wouldn't come along and would not have been a Bhaalspawn, Irenicus wouldn't even care about the future of his sister - Bodhi. He would have taken your soul, try to ascend and become a god, and then forget those he doesn't need. So yeah, he's an evil bastard but he's not a fool. Well, he did underestimate the main char heh.. In any case, all the dialogues refer to torturing Imoen with visions of death and horrors and of course, with real death scenes as well, not to mention with some spells to try to alter the mind and perhaps few "nukes" too to "test the limits" as well as raise the anger and hatred. But nothing points to rape as such. That wouldn't exactly 'lit the spirit with flames', would suppress probably more.

As for you, Lucifer Lord of imps, watch your temper. The whole point of posting this topic by Galadria is to get the opinion of the people. If she or her friend would make it just for themselves, they wouldn't announce it. It's also perfectly clear that there will never be a total consensus regarding the topic - people are simply different. So she and some more people think that Irenicus raped Imoen and want to add this to the story - no one tells that they cannot. I and Gabriel and some don't think that he did it - not because he was "not so bad", no, because it wouldn't simply serve his goal - so what, it's our right. For most of the parties it's still clear that Irenicus was a bastard, on that agree I, Gabriel, Galadria and many more. But again, not all, some may not think so. And so what, it's their right. It was even posted about the game developers about Irenicus: "Who knows his true means or goals, he was and remained a mystery to all". It can be seen in one of the articles posted on GameBanshee (or at least mentioned there). As I said to Anomen once in the game - if you don't have anything useful to say, then just shut up. Come to think of it, I said so to Aerie and Viconia too heh. Not to Jaheira though, she's a totally different gal

[ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Whailor ]

[Galadria]

Azred, thank you for saying that. I agree that Gabriel and Whaillor have a right to their opinion, but I do not agree to it. I am, however, interested in some of the reasoning, and to think through my reasons why I think that. I stick by my opinion that Irenicus is trying to break Immmie's spirit. He doesn't want the same thing from the PC as he does from Immie. He is trying to find out all that he can about the Bhaalsoul and hoiw it reacts, and when he is through, he throws her soul to Bodhi. He could rape her, because he raped the dryads. Do you really think that there was any consent, there? He captured them somehow and used them for his sex slaves. Notice that they do not say that he has stopped having sex/raping them, only that he shaows no apparent pleasure in the act, "he is cold inside."

[ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Galadria ]

[Azred]

As I am sure you well know, those who push the boundaries are persecuted. I agree with you about Jon's motivations and actions.

Stick to your guns! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Nifft the Nimble]

If all that's required is that Imoen feel that JI "fouled" her, rape isn't required. His experiments, his magical probings into her deepest soul, his smearing death in her face -- there's plenty of non-rape stuff for her to feel violated by.

Reaching into someone and stealing her soul is itself quite a violation.

Anyway, I'm not for or against the proposed rape. It's clearly required by the plot that Imoen feel violated, and equally clearly there are many non-rape reasons for her to feel that way.

It's your script, though, so write what you feel makes it work best.

Thanks for doing this mod!

Eagerly awaiting the results, -- Nifft

Hello Galadria, thought I would inflict my ruminations on you, as this expansion you're working on has been buzzing around in my head all day.
To the question of the fraternal relationship between the main char and Imoen: Bhaal impregnated many women in order to provide himself a vessel to return to. This suggests to me that Bhaal needed the bodies of the humans to provide vessels for his 'soul-seeds'(for lack of a better term), as the important part of his godhood could thus be banked for later use. Irenicus then tries to take advantage of this largesse of 'god-bits' lying about for his own nefarious ends.
I'm thinking that this would indicate that the only consanguinity between the various Bhaalspawn are their souls, so in terms of human genomes, there's no incest. The relationship is still very close between Immie and the main char, as they grew up together, so it may in a sense be "social incest"
Another thought, after all the crap that Imoen goes through, does she or should she gain anything? Afetr being subjected to JI's tender tests, I was wondering if it might have triggered something in her Bhaal-nature. (perhaps this does happen in the game, as I'm at the point of just having rescued Imoen, and I've studiously avoided spoilers so far...)

The above may be irrelevant, but what the hell, it was in my head, now it's out.