Six's Review of the Tactics MOD (Tactics Spoilers Galore)

[Dundee Slaytern]

Oh, it's most definitely possible. Just how often is a different story.

Amusing Bug Report. I was beating the tar out of Karamazov from the Improved Ilyich when I noticed something. He had the soundset of Imoen. He eeps and eeks when hit and moans like Imoen when he dies. Weird does not begin to describe it.

Side note to SixOfSpades. I just remembered something. There are Shadow Thieves on the first level of Jon Irenicus Dungeon. You see him die at the start, not to mention the dead bodies.

However, it begs the question on how they managed to reach there in the first place. Logically speaking, the only reason I can think of is that the portal was not locked until they started attacking and when Jonny took matters into his own hands, he massarced all the Shadow Thieves on the first level and locked the portal behind him.

[Neomi]

One of the key points to come out of this analysis (by the way, nice job SixOfSpades) is probably that as the expertise of the player increases, the easier becomes the original game. Thus, the need to "power up" the enemies. Then the player responds to cheese with cheese, thus developing a way around the new "powered up" fights. Then they want a more difficult challenge, so Tactics+Insane.

It's like an arms buildup. At first you have the player and the computer engaged in a nice duel with swords; then the player gets bored and gives the computer a pistol. Well that's too difficult a fight with just a sword, so I'll use a pistol too. Eventually the computer is playing with nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare, and the player responds with bigger nukes, more chemicals, and more bioweapons.

Which raises the question, would there be a way to create an "unbeatable" game (assuming that the player does not use PowerWord Shadowkeeper to create an invincible character)? Yes, just give every enemy ridiculously high HP, low AC, low THACO, low saves, a killsword, and infinite spells with illegal sequencers (not to mention all the immunities).

Is there a way to create an "unbeatable" game using realistic limits on enemies? I kind of doubt it, just because of the limitations of the game engine. That's why you see the kinds of cheese and cheats used by the Tactics mod.

I suppose that each player has to decide at which point to stop making the game more insanely difficult and just enjoy the challenge, at whatever level they choose.

[ 02-18-2004, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Neomi ]

[Xen]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Xen. Inquisitors cannot cast Clerical spells. ---- I forgot to mention something about Pontifex earlier on. Given the nature of his dialogue, I believe the intention was to make the quest a parody of stereotypical AD&D adventures (of the "save the world" kind). Hence no comprehensive background story.

I was thinkhing on Cavaliers then.

[Rataxes]

Very interesting read Six. I can't say I agree with all of it, particularly the grades in the short reviews, though I see where you're coming from. Many of your comments are spot on. Especially like the idea to replace the shadow thieves with lesser duergar parties, all on patrol just like Ilyich and his fellow guards. Just got two points about Imp Ilyich:

• That 'invisibility ability with infinite castings' that the Shadow Thieves have, has name, it is Hide in Shadows. They're thieves, and so should naturally have it. What they have naturally isn't that exact ability, but it does a good job simulating it, and they can/will only use it when they step out of your sight, the same restriction imposed on the standard stealth ability.
• The Shadow Thieves's wands don't have infinite uses. The thieves can only use it twice, and that's it. I do share your frustration over the wands's effects. The Demon Paralyze might be the most powerful, but at least you can avoid/resist/save against it. What really gets me is that the Wand of Fear ignores both saves and MR, making it the only truly unavoidable weapon the thieves possess. The one and only defense against it is immunity to fear.

Strongly agree with your final rant against powergaming. The whole modding community is stuck in an endless chain of ever increasing power, seemingly not realising that it's possible to increase the challenge and toughen up the game by going in the opposite direction as well. I'd warmly welcome a mod that aimed to de-cheesify the game, such as the two ITM tweaks you suggested. That list of no-no stuff in the end was almost identical to my own restriction list, though I don't mind contingency and trigger spells when not used for cheesy exploits.

[ 02-18-2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[shamrock_uk]

Very enjoyable read, thanks for sharing it. One possible explanation of the new Docks lich and the low level thugs: I know in my game that I triggered a mugging outside, they spawned in the distance so I ignored them and they followed me inside, appearing about half way through the battle. It is hard to believe that alongside bone golems are some low-level mediocre thugs, although I do realise that this is unlikely to happen for all four times you played it.

[Xen]

Is there a way to create an "unbeatable" game using realistic limits on enemies? I kind of doubt it, just because of the limitations of the game engine. That's why you see the kinds of cheese and cheats used by the Tactics

"Unebatable" game? Sure it is possbile. In case if the enemies could learn from your tactics. Now these are my dreams.

[Lord]

Really Six, I don't think I could have said any of it better myself. I'm not done reading it yet (about to get to Six Sprouts Off), but I agree with basically everything you've said so far.
It's very confusing how smarter vampires are easier [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

[Gangrell]

That was a rather good review Six, as I do agree with most of what you wrote. But in my honest opinion, I will never refer to the Tactics Mod as well, a Tactics Mod. Because in all honesty, it is not a tactics based mod, it is a brutality mod.

I understand the concept behind it, that you have to find your own tactics, own strategies to beat enemies, but that's not what it is. Jacking up an opponent's power to unbelievable levels is not using strategy, it's called cheese overload. Give the AI a script that can use strategy instead of raw power, then I will call it a Tactics Mod.

Here's my review, but I'm just going to cover a few things, not all of them.

The Acid Kensai
I do believe that they overdid it when they created this fellow. Now, I understand they incorporated him into the game so you don't get Celestial Fury too quick (even though the Improved Compound is still a cake walk), but the guy is damn well near indestructable if you do not know how to approach the situtation. He has the Ring of Gaxx, Amulet of Power, and the Robe of Vecna, that is just a bit much for one guy to have.

Improved Mae'Var
I actually enjoyed this battle, now that Mae'Var actually posses as a threat and is able to use his once restricted mage abilities.

Kangaxx and Guardians
Hmmm, Kangaxx, well, I had about the same difficulty with him I had when his power wasn't boosted, it was the guardians that gave me a run for my money. A psychotic vorpal weilding dwarf beheaded me a fair deal, and taking two liches was a bit tough. As for Kangaxx himself, unless you have spell immunity on, you are screwed because he has a near unlimited amount of Imprisonment spells as a innate ability.

Improved Dragons
Nothing too special, not something a few traps can't take care of.

Demon Knights
I have to say these guys are a bit stronger than I remembered. I think there is just a bit of cheese somehwere, as no matter how high your fire resistance is through items or pre-buffs, their fire ball spells can come close to annihilating you. A good challenge though.

Improved Twisted Rune
I had a great time with these guys. I have to say, not the biggest challenge from most of the group as the undead and so forth, but the lich and lady mage proved to put on a good show.

The Ritual
I think more or less this is a training ground in the game that shows how far your characters can go in a test of endurance. It has good battles, though I am disappointed you can't actually save the woman in the Ritual. Pontifex himself is alright, you just have to be weary of Timestop.

Improved Irenicus
Jon Bon gave me a run for my money. It took me a few reloads until I was able to really take advantage of things. Now I did exploit some powers from the items in the Items Upgrade mod to win the first stage in the battle. His slayer form was so so, can still be beaten even without your armor. Becoming the Shattered One was extreme, and an even greater pain as most of the time his invisibility cannot be detected because of MR by True Sight.

Improved Bodhi
I never really cared for this improvement, Bodhi with an everlasting fire shield, has an insane THAC0, and being an early encounter in the game doesn't suit me.

Improved Sahuagin City
Insane, unless you have good saving throws or a certain shield of cheese, you really have no chance (unless you use Mordenkainen's Sword many times). And facing an avatar that can Imprison a character on each hit to gain a cloak that doesn't even reflect spells anymore because of ToB, no, way too overpowered.

[Xen]

Improved Sahuagin City Insane, unless you have good saving throws or a certain shield of cheese, you really have no chance (unless you use Mordenkainen's Sword many times). And facing an avatar that can Imprison a character on each hit to gain a cloak that doesn't even reflect spells anymore because of ToB, no, way too overpowered.

Not on each hit. It is % option.

[Gangrell]

Originally posted by Xen: quote: Improved Sahuagin City Insane, unless you have good saving throws or a certain shield of cheese, you really have no chance (unless you use Mordenkainen's Sword many times). And facing an avatar that can Imprison a character on each hit to gain a cloak that doesn't even reflect spells anymore because of ToB, no, way too overpowered.

Not on each hit. It is % option. [/QUOTE]I said it 'can' as there is a percentage chance, not that 'it will'.