Six's Review of the Tactics MOD (Tactics Spoilers Galore)

[Rataxes]

Basically identical conclusions, but here goes.

My argument for kit class being a pretty mediocre kit to dual from is that many of it's features are of the type that starts out weak and grows progressively stronger as you gain more levels, while most of the penalties are constant restrictions that kick in immediately upon creation. Dual at low levels and the pay-off simply wont be very significant, dual at high levels and you definitely will get some nice defensive feats, but your second class would suffer too much for it to be worth it. Considering your second class wont gain any of the combat feats that regular fighter->duals get, with the locked APR and Prof points, I'd say there's no dual that the Shieldbearer can go for that any of the other fighter kits wont do better.

Which doesn't really matter at all though, since left to grow to high levels, it looks like a very useful and interesting kit on it's own accord. Do you have an existing mod in creation that you plan to put this kit into?

[ 02-22-2004, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: I'm sure it's a bug, of course, but in my game the Ritual Theurgeons have 45 proficiency points in Sling. (And on top of being Ranger Archers Dualed to Cleric, at that.) And kudos to Weimer for even knowing the word 'theurgeon.' [img]smile.gif[/img] Idle thought: Ritual Austringers, who can see everything visible to their unkillable, trained Eagles. Hmmmmm.

Not a bug.

They are Human dualclassed Ranger->Clerics(7/9).

Two Weapon Style: 18*
Sling: 45*
Flail/Morningstar: 1*
Sword & Shield Style: 9*
Warhammer: 1*
Mace: 1*
Extra Profiency 1: 1* <---- ? No idea what this is.

They have a grand total of 76*. I wish I had that many to spend. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Legitimately, they should only have a total of 10*. Any ideas on how it should be distributed?

EDIT] Dualclassed, not multiclassed.

[ 02-23-2004, 02:28 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[SixOfSpades]

7 levels of Archer Ranger gives us
Sling: *****
Flail/Morningstar: *
2-Weapon Style: **

and 9 levels of Cleric gives us
Mace: *
Warhammer: *
Sword & Shield Style: *
And their Level 8 star tacked onto 2-Weapon Style: ***

Dundee, is that "Mystery Proficiency" in the earlier part (with all the BG1 proficiences such as Large Sword and Missile) or the latter part? And what does your computer have for the Generic Archer in WEAPPROF.2DA?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I've been thinking about the Shieldbearer's Bastion ability. If I make it so that it roots the caster to one spot for the duration, suppose what would happen against Improved Kangaxx: The guy is immune to the Demilich Howl and Imprisonment, but what happens with the Teleport Field? Does being rooted to the ground negate the Field? If not, is the poor fellow doomed to be useless against Kangaxx, in that the only way he has of attaining immunity to Imprisonment means he has no way of getting close to the Demilich?

Originally posted by Rataxes: Which doesn't really matter at all though, since left to grow to high levels, it looks like a very useful and interesting kit on it's own accord. Do you have an existing mod in creation that you plan to put this kit into?

I have no mod, NPC or otherwise, planned for this kit (at least not yet), but I've sent the specs-in-progress to SimDong0, who seems willing to integrate my ideas into the next version of Improved Oasis 2 (Sim's release, not the Tactics release). Expect some rather difficult-to-hit guys on the front lines of that battle next time you go there.... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Does anyone think 2D10 is too much damage for the Shieldbashing?

[ 02-23-2004, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Dundee, is that "Mystery Proficiency" in the earlier part (with all the BG1 proficiences such as Large Sword and Missile) or the latter part?

The latter part. To make matters more confusing, it's not in the WEAPPROF.2da file.

And what does your computer have for the Generic Archer in WEAPPROF.2DA?

Specifically what are you looking for? There's a lot of numbers.

[SixOfSpades]

Doh! Thought I'd already replied to this, but it must have gotten lost in the hiccup line.

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Specifically what are you looking for? There's a lot of numbers.

If you need to ask, your version should be fine. When I was creating the character that eventually became Brendan, I noticed the weirdest damn thing--Both at Character Creation and after the game started, I could only place proficiency stars in:
Bastard Sword, Axe, 2-Handed Sword (up to 5 stars in each), and 2-Handed Style, Sword & Shield, Single Weapon (up to 2 in each).
I fixed it locally, of course, but still, dang. And no, I don't know why I didn't include this in the Review.

[weimer]

I have a long-winded email where I reply to many of Six's comments point-by-point, explaining why I've taken his advice or why I disagree with him. However, here is a summary of what I have actually fixed/changed in the Tactics mod so far:

* Fallen Deva script rework. Notably the script no longer heals
players who are enemies.
* Ilyich "Shadow Thieves" replaced with Duergar Parties of 89K XP warriors
and wizards (party size is at most 2) using standard spell memorization.
No tricky hiding or psycho wands, but the wizards may cast (normally)
spells like Confusion, Spook, Hold Person and Polymorph Other.
* Greater Otyugh now alternates between DD and CS with an 18 (not 9) second
interval.
* Ilyich gets a unique +2 Cold Hammer (paying homage to Pushkin and SoS).
* Doors on CI Level 1 stick open once opened.
* Ritual Skull PF Level Drain is now temporary.
* Li Kao is now LN with Neutral Robes.
* Yuan Ti Mage in Nalia's Keep doesn't talk: fixed.
* Lavok doesn't talk: fixed.
* Golems in Nalia's Keep don't go hostile: fixed.
* TorGal healing potion supply determined by diff slider.
* Sahu Priestess summons more, casts death spell less.
* Tanova doesn't cast spells: fixed.
* C6 Bodhi gains Vamp/Mages instead of Grimwarders.
* C3 Bodhi skips Chill of the Grave and Buried Alive.
* Imp Bodhi can charm undead, no save.
* "Curse you, CHARNAME! I shall not ..." is back.
* ToL Johnny gets a few Shatter Magics.
* Orb of Fear gets SI:Abj.
* ImpGC Guys all get extra healing potions and know how to use them.
* Kuroisan Fireshield animation added.
* Undead: Feeblmind, Unholy Word, etc., go out, your suggestions go in.
* Golems: now alternate between rocks and melee if you are far away.
* Dragons: Immune to Wing Buffet, max 3 / round.
* Dragons: Rapid "Stoneskin & Haste" bender fixed.

Here are the things that I am considering, but that would take time (and thus I welcome diffs/patches):

* Considering: your ImpIren slayer-when-they-die theory.
* Considering: Kuroisan goes after DZB.
* Considering: Unholy Reaver to other Githyanki party.
* Considering: Dialogue option to get 15 hours for the Ritual.

If there is something egregious from Six's commentary that you think should be fixed but that I mentioned above, mention it again here. While it is probably not on the list because I disagree with it (for whatever reason, see post later), if many people ask for it I may well add it as an option.

Six, thanks again for taking the time to do a detailed review.

[teardropmina]

I'm in agreement with Six in many issues he points out in his review, especially the core rule and the concept of balance. I think I'm just not the *liked mind* gamers that the Tactics Mod aims at to begin with. I'm a RPGer rather than a Battle-Gamer. I tried the Tactics because after several runs through SoA/ToB, many of the battles indeed seem too easy. Yet, after trying out the Tactics, I prefer the idea of *avoid using cheese to battle* rather than *resorting to chesse in the cheesed-up Tactic battles.* From a not liked mind gamer's perspective, I feel that the Mod is to justify cheese in the game. We can always choose NOT to use cheese in the game. I don't think any seasoned BG players will have any problem going through the standard SoA without Cloak of Mirroring.

My personal wish (as a gamer who's not the traget user of the Tactics type of mod)though is to have a different SoA final battle mod. The standard final battle is indeed too easy, quite a let down in the end of an epic adventure. But I feel that the Improved final battle is way too difficult for average gamers (= Me:p). Something in between will be nice.

[Assassin]

It does not require you to do cheese. If you expect to be able to defeat the battles with the same ease as you defeated the previous ones, then you're going to be wrong, yes. Another option could be; "don't use cheese in the cheesed up tactics battles".

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by weimer: I have a long-winded email where I reply to many of Six's comments point-by-point, explaining why I've taken his advice or why I disagree with him. However, here is a summary of what I have actually fixed/changed in the Tactics mod so far:

Um, did you send that long-winded email to anyone? Because I didn't recieve one, just in case it was meant for me. FYI. As for your list of stuff you've changed, hear that? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

That's the sound of me tearing my clothes off, running around the room like a bozo, and making choo-choo train noises. [img]graemlins/superdude.gif[/img] Ah, it's nice to have a forum full of you fine folks, so I know when it's safe to be mature. [img]smile.gif[/img]

* Doors on CI Level 1 stick open once opened.

Since that makes it much more difficult to isolate Ilyich & Friends, are you considering the "call for help" behavior changes I suggested here?

* Golems in Nalia's Keep don't go hostile: fixed.

Wish list, wholly unrelated to Tactics but at least worth mentioning here: If Nalia is in the party, she can order the lesser Golems to randomly patrol the level and seek out enemies, and/or accompany the party down to the cellars.

[/qb]* Dragons: Immune to Wing Buffet, max 3 / round.[/qb]

Hmmm....does that still mean that, if they target the WB close enough to themselves, they can still hit units behind them with it?

Six, thanks again for taking the time to do a detailed review.

And thank you for heeding the input of the eunuch in the harem (all the more fitting an analogy here because I have the knowhow, it's just a software problem!), not to mention creating the Tactics MOD in the first place. Cheers.

[Hank Parsons]

Yes, my first post here, but been lurking for a while. Do I still get the wave? Anyway, interesting thread. Does this mean there is, or will be, a new version of Tactics? I already like Tactics, and welcome any refinements to it. Keep up the good work.