Please tell me this is an urban myth

[Skunk]

1. The convoy was AMBUSHED -- by and entire town. It had no real route to "back out" as you mention.

It is a basic tactic that, when ambushed, you do not stay put but bring the battle to the enemy and thus seize the initiative. Bearing in mind that they were in the middle of a sandstorm, they had perfect cover for such an offensive.
This was a supply column and as such, an ambush was the only way that they were ever likely to see combat - for them to have not been trained in how to deal with such a situation is, to my mind, criminal negligence on the part of the high command.

2. Saying the SEALs and Special Forces get as much training as the regular British soldier is just plain rude. Our special forces are some of the best in the world, and you know good and well they are more comparable to Mossad, SAS, etc.

I apologise - the remark was too strong.

Let me be more clear in what I think. The US army has highly trained troops (special forces) and relatively poorly trained troops, like this supply column and the tank commander that fired into the hotel.
There seems to be only extremes.

3. Jessica Lynch *did* go down fighting, and though she drove a desk she did have basic military training. I forget how many she killed before she got hit, but it was more than 2 or 3.

This story came out before any of her colleagues were freed - which makes it both unconfirmed and suspect. Secondly, training should include more than simply being a good shot. There is more to the training of a soldier than being able to clean your weapon and fire it accurately.

It was Skunk who brought the British troops into the discussion

No, it was the original article that brought British troops into the discussion.

Skunk - {sigh}I try to avoid responding to your posts because you often have a very condescending tone towards America in general and our troops specifically.

Then I wish you had pointed this out earlier. I will try to adjust my tone accordingly, and I apologise if my tone caused offense.

so I didn't realize you were still privy to the opinions of virtually every British officer.

I'm privy to the media in which they are quoted - and there is a constant stream of articles by British officers and troops who are complaining about the inappropriate use "firepower".

Not unsurprisingly, I imagine that very few of them ever reach the United States.

[Rimjaw]

Originally posted by Skunk: Quote: 2. Saying the SEALs and Special Forces get as much training as the regular British soldier is just plain rude. Our special forces are some of the best in the world, and you know good and well they are more comparable to Mossad, SAS, etc.

I apologise - the remark was too strong.

Let me be more clear in what I think. The US army has highly trained troops (special forces) and relatively poorly trained troops, like this supply column and the tank commander that fired into the hotel.
There seems to be only extremes.
[/QUOTE]In other words you were refering to conventional forces and not special ops. Although I'm not in the US military, I have heard of such instances that you have talked about in your previous posts. A good example was Operation Anaconda. British Marines had to be sent in due to the substandard training and preparation of the once great 10th Mountain Brigade and the 101st Airborne. Oh btw, I'm not baiting anybody, just sharing what I know
Article 1
Article 2

[ 04-16-2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Rimjaw ]

RimJaw you are quite correct, throughout the 1990's the US Military budget for training was slashed again and again. Some units were never even issued ammo. The cuts in the military were gross and extreme, veteran Helo pilots left the service in droves because they were not getting air time, pilots too. It is in a small part this lack of trainignt he recent (as in the past couple of years) that accidents involving helo's and aircraft have increased so much.....we could also examine the possible contribution toward "friendly fire" that the lack of training dollars had as well.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Lil Lil: Oh and Donut...all kinds of crap came out about CNN today, how they undermine American politics in order to set themselves apart as an "independent global news source". I always considered them to be clueless and wouldn't have been surprised if the original post wasn't an urban myth, it turned out to be just another inept attempt at winning ratings by hiring actors to portray people in authority or people with any real knowledge of what's going on. They are failures as journalists and I wouldn't expect them to be so "global" now that the real truth behind their broadcasting has been revealed (by their own employees btw). Another nasty pot of soup that you and your fellow Brits can have...and with pleasure.

I find this reaction quite bizarre Moni. I thought it had to be an urban myth and thought the joke was on the so called experts. The fact that you took it as an insult against the US military says more about you than it does about me. You shouldn't take things so personally.

But the bit I really don't get is the last line. If this is a CNN spoof what has it got to do with the Brits?

Originally posted by Lil Lil: The initial post didn't hurt me at all...it expresses the mentality associated with CNN quite well as a matter of fact and that's got nothing to do with Americans as a whole.

Originally posted by Lil Lil: Not that the joke wasn't funny as a joke but the initial post seemed to be intended to push buttons inciting hurt or anger moreso than attempting to make anyone (other than the anti-American crowd) laugh...my response was more of a kind of "oh brother" ... consider the sources...Donut and CNN. [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

In case you missed that part of my post...you also may have missed the word "if" in your quote...what it has to do with the Brits is that you and other non-Americans seem to be eager to point out the mistakes of Americans wherever they are involved in this war, be it in the military or the media...while completely ignoring the mistakes your country is making in their involvement, and all for the sake of a laugh in this case...calling them "yanks", not Americans (Is there one post made in this forum where an American refers to your countrymen as limeys?)...it's rather condecending, don't you think?

It's just sad imo.

Whatever became of those people trapped underground in Basra, Donut? The story of their tragedy seems to have been buried (or drowned) along with them.
Has anything more than a half-assed whack at the ground with a pick-axe been done on the part of the British forces in that area? I did see some locals digging with spoons and shovels, but they don't seem to be getting any help.
I'd like to hear that they managed to rescue at least some of those who could be heard yelling for help from their dungeons....those could have been Kuwaiti POW's you know.

[ 04-17-2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Lil Lil ]

[Donut]

Originally posted by Lil Lil: Whatever became of those people trapped underground in Basra, Donut? The story of their tragedy seems to have been buried (or drowned) along with them. Has anything more than a half-assed whack at the ground with a pick-axe been done on the part of the British forces in that area? I did see some locals digging with spoons and shovels, but they don't seem to be getting any help. I'd like to hear that they managed to rescue at least some of those who could be heard yelling for help from their dungeons....those could have been Kuwaiti POW's you know.

Well Moni, this seems to be a non-story as far as I can see. There was no 'yelling' as you put it. Some relatives who lost people claimed to have heard voices and at one stage there 'might' have been some scratching heard. If there was anything in it the British troops would have done everything they could to dig them out because they understand the importance of winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. It's easier to do this if you are helping them.

[Davros]

Originally posted by Lil Lil: calling them "yanks", not Americans (Is there one post made in this forum where an American refers to your countrymen as limeys?)...it's rather condecending, don't you think?

I think the term itself is in general enough usage not for it to be seen as overly condescending Moni - even though there will be some suthners to whom them would be fightin words [img]smile.gif[/img] . I do agree that the application of its usage determines whether the writer is using it in derisory fashion. Americans can be a continental usage as well as country specific. Even the Canucks and the Mexicans are Americans afer all.

Mind you, the Aussie rhyming slang version does not bear repeating . Now if they had used that one then I would have been offended myself.

[Memnoch]

Hello everyone, just wanted to say that I'm pleased that while we appear to be as passionate, stubborn and one-eyed as ever in our debates with each other we're at least not taking things/comments/disagreements personally and are not flamebaiting (which would not be conducive to a smoothly-running forum, I'm sure you'd all agree). I'm sure we'd all love to keep it that way, a smoothly-running forum with no flamebaiting, no arrogant know-it-alls, no prima donnas, no drama queens and people not taking things personally makes us all happy, since it's a sign that at least we know how to be courteous to each other, even if we don't personally like each other. It also means that we're being mature and have self-control. Otherwise we'd be like little children throwing stones at each other in the playground. Keep it up.

[ 04-18-2003, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]