Support inside Iraq

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Excuses excuses... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

LLAO, well excuse or no, it is the truth [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

I've been reading up a bit on the founding fathers lately, and it has made me reconsider some of my views regarding world opinion. George Washington wrote often of a country that should be totally for itself and its people, never permanently tied to any other country or permanently opposed to any other country.

I agree. Now, being for ourselves doesn't mean we don't care when people starve or die in a war in some far flung place - it just means that the US's interests are always first and foremost. This notion follows naturally from the notion that the government's power derives from and exists only on behalf of its people - it doesn't (read: shouldn't) give a damn about anything except what its people do.

Now, this is tempered by the notion that the Constitution exists to protect, in part, the minority opinion in a land (ideally, pure democracy) where the majority view could hurt some citizens if left unchecked. This is exactly what freedom of speech is about - you don't need to be "free" to speak about the things the majority agrees with, only those things that are unpopular. So, with that minor tempering, I expect the government to act in the best interests of the American people - both the majority and minority views.

That said, I return to the notion of world opinion. I'm really beginning to think world opinion only matters to us when: (1) a bad opinion of the US could cause harm (via backlash, alienation of other countries, etc.) to the people of the US, or (2) the American people care about some larger issue that stems from their compassion rather than pure socioeconomic needs (such as, I hope, the environment - but I guess even that is selfish).

Anyway, I'm feeling less and less flummoxed when the US isn't seen as a goody-goody by everyone.

And finally, I'll point out that the US has 2 problems when dealing with world views: (1) plain jealousy: the have-nots will always feel some bile in their stomach for the haves; (2) damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont: everyone wants the big superpower to be the world policeman and fix all horrible wrongs, but still somehow not interfere in other folks' business - what a warped notion of the prime directive.

Hey Timber, [img]smile.gif[/img] I am glad you ahve been reading about the FF's (no not the fantastic four) I really wish a lot of other people would too. Im not saying that reading about them and their writings would mean we would all agree, but at least there would not be quite so many misinformed disagreements...(I think informed disagreements are much better). I like what you said about tempering things, altho Im never going to be as "green" as you are when it comes to the environment I suspect, but no one can say they love the outdoors more than I do...while I don't hunt as much as I used to I do hike a lot.

I guess this reply is really off topic, but I liked Timbers post and wanted to say so!.

I still maintain, the "average joe" in Iraq will not be a factor. They will duck and cover untill all the shooting stops and then will continue their lives as always. IMHO any way.

[Rikard_OHF]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I've been reading up a bit on the founding fathers lately, and it has made me reconsider some of my views regarding world opinion. George Washington wrote often of a country that should be totally for itself and its people, never permanently tied to any other country or permanently opposed to any other country. I agree. Now, being for ourselves doesn't mean we don't care when people starve or die in a war in some far flung place - it just means that the US's interests are always first and foremost. This notion follows naturally from the notion that the government's power derives from and exists only on behalf of its people - it doesn't (read: shouldn't) give a damn about anything except what its people do. Now, this is tempered by the notion that the Constitution exists to protect, in part, the minority opinion in a land (ideally, pure democracy) where the majority view could hurt some citizens if left unchecked. This is exactly what freedom of speech is about - you don't need to be "free" to speak about the things the majority agrees with, only those things that are unpopular. So, with that minor tempering, I expect the government to act in the best interests of the American people - both the majority and minority views. That said, I return to the notion of world opinion. I'm really beginning to think world opinion only matters to us when: (1) a bad opinion of the US could cause harm (via backlash, alienation of other countries, etc.) to the people of the US, or (2) the American people care about some larger issue that stems from their compassion rather than pure socioeconomic needs (such as, I hope, the environment - but I guess even that is selfish). Anyway, I'm feeling less and less flummoxed when the US isn't seen as a goody-goody by everyone. And finally, I'll point out that the US has 2 problems when dealing with world views: (1) plain jealousy: the have-nots will always feel some bile in their stomach for the haves; (2) damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont: everyone wants the big superpower to be the world policeman and fix all horrible wrongs, but still somehow not interfere in other folks' business - what a warped notion of the prime directive.

We dont want the USA play the worlds policemen
Ands thats where the problems lays
coz USA thinks the world does, but they dont

[Timber Loftis]

Well, Rikard, I just take my cues from the newspapers. And, I get the impression that when things go awry the US is often sought for help. Now, maybe most countries would rather just have heaping gobs of our money, but they're still looking for some action by the US in most instance - IMHO and perception.

BTW, did you realize you quoted 30+ lines just to type 3? Couldn't you have simply posted a reply without quoting my whole post?

Rikard if what you said is true and the European states don't want US palying cop, why don't they close our military bases in their countries? I think Spain, Greece, Italy and the UK may have a different opinion from yours about what they want the US to do for them. (the nations not forum individuals)

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by MagiK: Rikard if what you said is true and the European states don't want US palying cop, why don't they close our military bases in their countries? I think Spain, Greece, Italy and the UK may have a different opinion from yours about what they want the US to do for them. (the nations not forum individuals)

Why do they have to close them (the nations)? Why can't your soldiers just go home? They aren't occupying are they? And why can't the individuals close them?

[ 01-11-2003, 04:41 AM: Message edited by: Djinn Raffo ]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Rikard if what you said is true and the European states don't want US palying cop, why don't they close our military bases in their countries? I think Spain, Greece, Italy and the UK may have a different opinion from yours about what they want the US to do for them. (the nations not forum individuals)

Why do they have to close them (the nations)? Why can't your soldiers just go home? They aren't occupying are they? And why can't the individuals close them?[/QUOTE]
Why don't our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines go home you mean. They don't go home, because those nations have asked us to be there. They have not asked us to go home...nor do they appear to want to be left on their own to defend their own interests abroad. They actually COUNT on the might of the US military to defned them and secure their interests around the world.....it isn't like they can do it their self. The US military preasence has allowed all of those countries to spend far far less on their own defense than they would have had to do otherwise.....Not to mention, they don't want to loose the BILLIONS of $$$$$ that the US pays for rent and that the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and MArines SPEND in their economies. The US military affects foreign economies in a rather large and positive dollar way. [img]smile.gif[/img] They want us, they need us to some extent so we stay.