Mom Laden?

[Morgan_Corbesant]

ok, if im not mistaken, America get NOTHING out of attacking afghanistan aside from retribution. secondly, we are dropping millions of dollars in food to them, and they are eating now. who made America the world police?............the WORLD did. EVERYONE calls on us to help if they are in need of it. and just so you know, its all of NATO that is involved, not just America. there are tapes that bin hiden made, that prove he was involved in the attack. yes, America did make a couple of mistakes in its time. Vietnam is a prime example. we learned from that mistake however. you know damn well that bin hiden will do it again if we did nothing in retaliation. the taliban is done, its now a matter of finding all of the al quada (or whatever) we are there helping them, and you right wing liberal pricks cant understand that. you think our troops want to go to those places? well let me tell you, im a U.S. Marine, and i DONT want to be there. im INFANTRY, a front lines fighter. however, i dont want to be there, because NOBODY really wants war. most of our troops have families, and dont want to die, and have that family do without. so before you go spouting your propaganda, maybe you should get your facts straight. i am an American, proud of my country, and i WILL defend it if it comes down to it.

[img]graemlins/ninja.gif[/img]

Corporal Bryson United States Marine Corps. Infantry

[Nachtrafe]

OK...I'm going to respond to SOME of these points. The rest is drivel that is probably garnered from too many late nights on the Internet reading conspiracy theories. Here goes

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Originally posted by lord_gabriel:
...so, back at the keyboard...

...first i'D agree to some of you, Hitler WAS a maniac. No doubt about that. It's a shame racistical tendencies are erupting again even, or especially in my country...

...second, i'm not proud of being german, because i actually think that being part of a certain nation is a matter of coincidence not of own accomplishment...

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True. Although in a free society(which Germany IS) you have the right to leave once you come of legal age in that society. If you hate Germany so much you are legally free to leave.

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...Bman, you forgot to mention Panama. It's a thing i had in mind, i'll do some research for more...

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What, specifically, about Panama? I'll wait to respond until I see the results of your research.

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...How do you define War ? I would count US American Action in Grenada War since the Government of both Countries got involved...

...the US isn't interested in helping anyone but themselves. They do only react on invasions or similar stuff if US interests are in danger. (e.g. Iraq, Albania...) ...

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Correct. Most nations dont go around involving themselves in armed conflicts unless they have a reason. That's what peacekeeping organizations like NATO are for.
And ummmm...just by way of refuting your point...in what way did Bosnia involve the US? Or US interests. That was purely humanitarian.

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...I look in the mirror to see what the world is today, and i'd agree that the USA took a major role in what i see. More than 70% of all the world's inhabitants live in poverty. Altough we are not without guild either, there is some evidence that the US is not interested in making things better. That would be OK, but they pretend to do (e.g. IWF, WTO). The US i a major producer of pollution and we all know how Bush reacted...

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Where are you getting your numbers. Some actual backing of your statements with facts, figures, heck, even pie charts would be useful.

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...Bman, your statements prove, that the winners do write history...

...isn't it somehow interesting that the Taliban was initially trained and armed by the USA..?

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OK...How many times does this have to be repeated before people get it. THE US DID *NOT* TRAIN AND/OR ARM THE TALIBAN. THE TALIBAN WAS A GROUPS OF RELIGIOUS STUDENTS LIVING IN THE MOUNTAINS THAT CAME TO POWER DURING THE AFGHANI CIVIL WAR!!! This accusation is getting very very old. It is unfounded and untrue, and a tiny bit of RESEARCH would allow you to discover that you are incorrect.

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...did you know that still US-supported Paramilitaric Units are fighting in South America..?

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Where? Whom? Perhaps you'd like to provide proof. Instead of, again, making unfounded, inflammatory statements.

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...isn't it funny that Anthrax was developed by the NATO first..?

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Ummmmm...having grown up on a farm and studied agriculture most of my formative years, I can tell you, unequivocaly, that Anthrax come FROM SHEEP! It is a naturally occuring disease and has been around for a LONG time.

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...do you remember that the USA nearly blew up the whole planet during Cuba crisis, because they thought USSR would install Nukes on Cuba. True, maybe. But noone cared for the american nukes in Turkey. So are the USSR really to blame when they want to install an equal threat to the US...

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"nearly blew up the whole planet "? When? Perhaps my history is a little fuzzy. But I dont recall any nuclear weapons being launched by the US during the Cuban Missle Crisis. The ONLY time the US has ever launched Nuclear weapons on another country was at the end of WWII. We dropped 2. On Japan. That's it. End of list. Please read a history book if you doubt me. I promise...its there.

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...i personally dislike the US-self righteousness (tricky word, i hope the spelling is correct), why are they taking themselves the right to invade anytime anywhere, if there isn't a legal reason, they would make one up - who made them world police..?

...i'm still not sure if the invasion of afghanistan was legal or not. Noone has ever proven to me, that Bin Laden did order/support the attacks of 11th September. But i am really sure the US Government would make up some proves if they need...

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Hmm...let me think for just a second. What possible reason could the US have for invading Afghanistan and trying to kill Osama Bin Laden? Does the WORLD TRADE CENTER ring a bell? How about THE PENTAGON? Or maybe, if that doesn't do it for you...how about 6000 INNOCENT CIVILIANS KILLED BY TERRORISTS!!!!!

In addition, there is a video tape, found in Jalalabad(sp) showing bin Laden BRAGGING about the WTC. LAUGHING AND JOKING about the casualty count, and that it was much higher than anticipated. And again, if you dont believe ME, check any of the major news sources. Reuters.com, CNN.com, Foxnews.com, AP.com, Etc!!

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...after the bombing started (pretty cowardly, uh ? :-p ), Taliban leaders announced they would hand Bin Laden over, if the US would show them evidence for his guild - this has not happened, why ?

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They said that they would hand bin Laden over to a neutral, muslim state. That's sort of like saying that, if you commited a crime in the US, and the US asked for you to be handed over, and German said sure, we'll give him up to Holland. Do you see the absolute LACK of cooperation that was. The Taliban had absolutely no intention of giving up bin Laden. Never did. All they were trying to do was delay.

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...besides, maybe be you should consider that all the information you get from media is controlled by someone. You can, should, never trust the information you get immidiately. Try to see other opinions. Don't think they are all liars, because you would prefer believing your own opinion. If you try to see US actions from the opposite view you might become REALLY angry. Why should it always be the other side, which is to blame ?!

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Many of us, myself, Ronn, Ryanamur, Yorick, Memnoch, Silver Cheetah, etc etc get our news from SEVERAL sources. Me personally, I HATE the majority of American media. I prefer to get my news online. Try www.reuters.com or www.npr.com for impartial reporting. There are HUNDREDS of news sources online, and many people read them. So its more than a bit ridiculous for you to assume that none of us read them.

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...umm, and think of one thing : Terrorism is not the problem. It's a mean (undoubtly a terrible and completely unacceptable mean. and I would never try to find ANY excuses for terrorists. the attack on the 11th of sep was absolutely horrible) - one should think of the reasons...

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On a final note. Almost all of your points have been addressed at one point or another in other threads. You *might* want to consider doing a bit of background reading on this forum *BEFORE* you come into a forum as serious as this one, and insult an entire nation. And when you do, you might want to do it with more ammunition than just your attitude.

[Ronn_Bman]

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Originally posted by lord_gabriel:

...Bman, you forgot to mention Panama. It's a thing i had in mind, i'll do some research for more...

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The dictator (who, yes, we helped put in power) was beginning to not be happy with just ruling the country. He also wanted to be rich and began running drugs. He was warned to stop repeated. Finally, he was force to accept democratic elections, but refused to accept the results of the elections, which he lost. The Panamanian people welcomed his removal.

We helped put him in power, but once he got into power, he decided the people didn't matter. It was all about him.

It's not like we were interested in taking the country, for goodness sakes, we gave the canal back early, when we could have, in fact, renewed the lease.

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by lord_gabriel:

...isn't it somehow interesting that the Taliban was initially trained and armed by the USA..?

...do you remember that the USA nearly blew up the whole planet during Cuba crisis, because they thought USSR would install Nukes on Cuba. True, maybe. But noone cared for the american nukes in Turkey. So are the USSR really to blame when they want to install an equal threat to the US...

...i personally dislike the US-self righteousness (tricky word, i hope the spelling is correct), why are they taking themselves the right to invade anytime anywhere, if there isn't a legal reason, they would make one up - who made them world police..?

...i'm still not sure if the invasion of afghanistan was legal or not. Noone has ever proven to me, that Bin Laden did order/support the attacks of 11th September. But i am really sure the US Government would make up some proves if they need...

...after the bombing started (pretty cowardly, uh ? :-p ), Taliban leaders announced they would hand Bin Laden over, if the US would show them evidence for his guild - this has not happened, why ?

...besides, maybe be you should consider that all the information you get from media is controlled by someone. You can, should, never trust the information you get immidiately. Try to see other opinions. Don't think they are all liars, because you would prefer believing your own opinion. If you try to see US actions from the opposite view you might become REALLY angry. Why should it always be the other side, which is to blame ?!

...umm, and think of one thing : Terrorism is not the problem. It's a mean (undoubtly a terrible and completely unacceptable mean. and I would never try to find ANY excuses for terrorists. the attack on the 11th of sep was absolutely horrible) - one should think of the reasons...

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The Taliban was never armed or supported by the US. They did not form until the early 90s. When the Soviets pulled out they continued to support the current Afghan government (they installed). That fell to the northern alliance, which had roots in the freedom fighters of the 80s. The Taliban formed from a relgious group in Pakistan and took power from the NA.

The US threatened nuclear war in Cuba because we were being threatened. I am familiar with the Nukes in Turkey, and they were there, not only to protect US, but to protect NATO. Interesting that you don't consider the protection provided to Europe during the cold war worthy of mentioning in your statement.

The US does not take the right to invade anytime or anywhere. That may be your misconception, but the US does have a right to protect it's citizens and it's interest. Germany (and this is not a slam against Germany) hasn't had to worry about protecting itself for 3 generations. It's been done for them. I guess that makes it a bit easier to criticise.

Who would you like to prove Osama's guilty to you? The President?
The tape released today proves Osama had intimate knowledge of the attacks. Of course, if you'd like to believe it was made in Hollywood, or if you just don't want to accept under any circumstances that the US could be right, this won't matter to you.

The Taliban refused to hand Osama over! They guaranteed he could not have done it because he had been under their supervision! Only when they realised we would do more than fire a missle or two at vacant training camps, did they say they would consider turning Osama over, if provided with evidence. They never offered to do it, they said they would consider it. The United Nations ordered the Taliban, over a year ago, to turn Osama over to any nation that would prosecute him for his crimes. They didn't then, so why would you think they would if they saw the evidence? Because you heard it? Funny to me that you would believe what you hear from the Taliban more than you would believe US.

Do you honestly think the Taliban, who said, "With Allah's help, America will fall down," would have believed any evidence proved by US? They weren't given the evidence, but the other nations of the world were, and they believed.

Maybe you should try to see different opinions. Maybe you should consider the US can be right. Maybe if you did, you'd become REALLY angry at the other side. Has the US done anything right in the last 60 years? If you don't think so, then you're probably as biased as you accuse US of being.

I'll answer your question "why is it always the 'other' side" with this one, "why is it always the US?"

I'm not sure if you commented on the US media being "controlled" in this thread or if it was in another, but I'll answer it here since I'm busy typing. [img]smile.gif[/img] I'm not sure how the media works in your country, but here they are free to report the news as they see fit. If they American media wasn't free to report without restriction, do you really think President Clinton would have nearly been removed from office because of a semen stain on a 20 year olds' dress?

If you want to believe the US is the world's problem, nothing will ever change your mind, and you have the right to believe what you want. Yes, the winners do write history (as you said earlier), but the biggest winner in the last century doesn't run your country, and even if we did, you could say what you wanted. Life is funny, huh?

[Barry the Sprout]

OK, a bit of overreaction here I feel!

Just remember guys that what LG said may or may not be too your liking but as far as I can tell there was no personal attack in it. I don't think that that can be considered flame baiting or trolling anymore than John's "Twas the night before payback" thread.

If you feel flamed, don't post. If you want to argue the points then do so - that is what the forum is here for as far as I know (once again I feel the need to point out Ronn as an example here muttermuttergrumblegrumblegoodytwo-shoesmuttermutter). LG wasn't, as a far as I can tell, attacking any of you guys personally. Just American policy in general. All these issues have been covered here before without so much aggression so can we please all calm down.

[Ronn_Bman]

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Originally posted by lord_gabriel:
I'm not proud of being german, because i actually think that being part of a certain nation is a matter of coincidence not of own accomplishment...

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Coincidence or accomplishment? Neither matters, it's what you make of your situation.

Hitler was not Germany, nor were all Germans Hitler. I think the actions of Hitler cloud the great history of Germany, but no country is defined by a single generation. Especially not a nation with the proud history of Germany. The fact that the German people worked so hard after the war and have become a world financial power speaks volumes for them!

My great-grandmother was German, and my wife's great-aunt. I've always been proud of my Germany heritage, and you should be too.

You may think people in here are anti-German, but it's not true. You said some insulting things (whether you intended them to be that or not) and people responded (me included) with some statements about your nation's history, but the fact is, none of us controlled the past (most of us weren't alive), and we are all working with the present, towards our future.

[Ronn_Bman]

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Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
...muttermuttergrumblegrumblegoodytwo-shoesmuttermutter).

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LOL!

[lord_gabriel]

...so, maybe you're right, maybe i'va fallen victim to russian propaganda (born in GDR)...

...But i've mentioned a few points that should be discussed (i'll admit that we've strayed a bit from the initial question), but i think US politics are a bit egoistic (climate conferences), IWF a.s.o. - But what i dislike most is the pretention to act out of humanity and not for economical reasons...

...funny thing is, that most of the people i meet in the university agree with me, even the US-Americans...

...lets keep it on that, shall we...

[Ronn_Bman]

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Originally posted by lord_gabriel:
...so, maybe you're right, maybe i'va fallen victim to russian propaganda (born in GDR)...

...But i've mentioned a few points that should be discussed (i'll admit that we've strayed a bit from the initial question), but i think US politics are a bit egoistic (climate conferences), IWF a.s.o. - But what i dislike most is the pretention to act out of humanity and not for economical reasons...

...funny thing is, that most of the people i meet in the university agree with me, even the US-Americans...

...lets keep it on that, shall we...

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In Afghanistan, we've said terrorism should be dismantled. I'm not sure how that is economic. The war in Afghanistan is retaliatory.

The world thinks the US is egotistical because of statements like, "American is the greatest nation", etc., but these things are said in speaches to the US! The media shows it, and everyone says "oh, the US thinks they're the best". Our politicians don't say these things in foreign speaches

[Morgan_Corbesant]

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Originally posted by lord_gabriel:
nachtrafe. i dont think that there is ANY reason to beproud to live in the usa. actually i think you should be ashamed of what your country does all over the world.

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there you go BARRY THE SPROUT!!!! is this enough?! i LIVE in america, so i find this attack on the country in general, a personal attack on me and all of Americas citizens.

[img]graemlins/ninja.gif[/img]