LOTR Problem...

[dplax]

No one too powerful would have been able to pass the borders of Mordor, as Sauron feared them and kept them under constant watch. Sauron's greatest fear was not that the ring was going to be destroyed, but it was that someone tried to take his place using the ring.

[Blunderbuss]

Let's face facts. So far none of the arguments against the plot have been very strong and all can be argued against with some effectiveness. The eagles idea isn't necessarily a plot hole as we've read so many arguments that would suggest otherwise. At any time, when the eagles would have been able to take Frodo and the ring to Orodruin (Mt. Doom)without undefeatable oppostion were blocked by a lack of knowledge about the ring or an altogether lack of Gandalf. By the time Gandalf remet with Frodo, the Nazgul would have recooperated and would be defending the border of Mordor. It was known only to late, how truly powerful Sauron had once again become. Hence, the inaction of the races of middle Earth can be explained alongside other arguments put forth during this thread, alongside the fact that the races were not wholly agreeable and would not so easily join together even by the advice of a wizard. Conclusion: no definite plot holes rather attempts at nit-picking.

[ 01-10-2005, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Blunderbuss ]

[Kakero]

Something I want to ask, where does Sauron get the finance to fund his military expedition? How does he feed his enormous armies? I don't see any sort of vegetation or animals in mordor.

[Nerull]

Originally posted by Kakero: Something I want to ask, where does Sauron get the finance to fund his military expedition? How does he feed his enormous armies? I don't see any sort of vegetation or animals in mordor.

The honest answer is that it does not matter. I really doubt that Tolkien considered it, just like most of your D&D dungeons. How many times in D&D dungeons do you see critters living on a bottom level of a dungeon with no food and no water? They essentially survive by "DM license".

Same with the orcs and trolls in Mordor. I guess you can make an assumption about food to state that they got enough captives and animals to feed them all, but I did not see so much as a stream anywhere. There is a reason that most settlements are near water. I guess they just had underground springs enough to fill waterskins...

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Sigmar: It's one of the most famous plot-holes of all time. Stalwart supporters of Tolkien defend him by coming up with something along the lines of "A wizard did it". I think Tolkien did it intentionally to show that even the best are capable of making the odd mistake.

You're one of those who argue that gandalf was a 3rd level illusionist with 3 artifacts aren't you (ring, sword, and staff) (actually I think Gary Gygax first made that accusation, and it has become quite popular)

[ 01-11-2005, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

[Sigmar]

Originally posted by Thoran: As I recall, it was DURING the Hobbit that Gandalf and the Council eject Sauron from Mirkwood (it's the reason he leaves Bilbo and the dwarves at the border of Mirkwood). Regarding the eagles, I don't know if it's a plot hole or simply something Tolkien thought about but never talked about. The only thing I can add that hasn't already been mentioned is that the Eagles crossed into Mordor only AFTER Sauron was killed, and Sauron WAS a powerful being... maybe he had some tricks up his sleeves for dealing with airborn invaders? Maybe he'd have made the mountain erupt to prevent anyone getting close? Seems if the good team had made such a blatant move Sauron would have had some way of countering... he wasn't born yesterday after all.

He left the actual front door into the volcano wide open! Why? Is there a reason for this? I genuinly don't know.

Chief Security Guard, Sauron ain't.

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by dplax: Arwen did not defeat the Nazgùl, her father and Gandalf produced the flood in the book. And the flood only took away their horses and their bodies, it did not defeat them. As to the other question: at the end of the Second Age of the World when the Last Alliance of Elves and Men defeated Sauron they thought he was not going to return. Only Elrond knew he was going to be back.

Furthermore, Arwen had nothing to do with that scene, she was put into the movie in so many places because Tolkien had alot of characters that showed up and left almost as quickly, and it was easier to "consolidate" them into one character that had a fairly important role in the quest (even if the love story was never covered in any detail in the story itself (it was discussed in the appendices after return of the king)

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Nerull: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kakero: Something I want to ask, where does Sauron get the finance to fund his military expedition? How does he feed his enormous armies? I don't see any sort of vegetation or animals in mordor.

The honest answer is that it does not matter. I really doubt that Tolkien considered it, just like most of your D&D dungeons. How many times in D&D dungeons do you see critters living on a bottom level of a dungeon with no food and no water? They essentially survive by "DM license".

Same with the orcs and trolls in Mordor. I guess you can make an assumption about food to state that they got enough captives and animals to feed them all, but I did not see so much as a stream anywhere. There is a reason that most settlements are near water. I guess they just had underground springs enough to fill waterskins... </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think there was much about Middle Earth that Tolkien DIDN'T think about. As far as feeding the orc horde, we were just discussing this on another forum:

At the top of Page 201 in The Return of the King, Tolkien writes "Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Nurmen; nor of the great roads that ran away east and south to tributary lands, from which the soldiers of the tower brought long waggon-trains of goods and booty and fresh slaves. At the top of page 247 in TRotK, Aragorn grants freedom to the slaves of Mordor and he "gave to them all the lands about Lake Nurmen to be their own."

[Luvian]

You're one of those who argue that gandalf was a 3rd level illusionist with 3 artifacts aren't you (ring, sword, and staff) (actually I think Gary Gygax first made that accusation, and it has become quite popular)

That's a funny theory considering D&D was created after LOTR was published...

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Sigmar: He left the actual front door into the volcano wide open! Why? Is there a reason for this? I genuinly don't know. Chief Security Guard, Sauron ain't.

Well... he left the door open because he was incapable of concieving that anyone would try to destroy the ring, it's what the whole "stealth" approach was counting on.