What do you prefer?Roleplaying or powergaming?

[Indemaijinj]

My view on this is that roleplaying and powergaming is not always mutually exclusive.

Still I usually like to make the roleplaying part imperative so that choices who would be good powergaming-wise, but ruin any attempt to role-play the situation would be sorted out.

Actually powergaming can further roleplaying at times. Take mages for example: There are a lot of slightly cheesy tactics with arcane spells. Some of them are just plain unfair, but some can be justified as the mage being so well studied in the intricacies of spellcraft that he can utilise the spells' true potential by slightly odd procedures.

Also if I am playing an especially greedy evil party I like to drain every opportunity for as much gold as possible only deeming people expendable after they stop showering me with gold and stuff.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Seraph: Someone who kills the two Liches and doesn't get a clue that Kangaxx is dangerous deserves to get killed. The game practily writes "demi-lich" in big red letters all over the screen. I mean "Hmm, I have this guys torso and legs, and hes still alive, I wonder what he could be? (A head perhaps) He obviously was powerful if people needed to turn into Liches in order to prevent him from being put back together, hes obviously powerful, and old, what is he? (Some kind of lich?)." Baldurs gate throws hints about tough fights at you by the dozen.

Yes indeed, except for the fact that the Shade Lich and Elemental Lich never say that their purpose is to prevent Kangaxx's rebirth. All they say is that they are Guardians (immediately translated by the gamer to mean "I have something cool, and you'll have to kill me to get it"), and that you shall never possess whatever it is that they're protecting. So the hint that Kangaxx is more powerful than those 2 Liches put together is never reinforced.

There is no evidence to suggest that Kanaxx might be a Demi-Lich. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary, as what the heck would a Demilich even want arms and legs for anyway? Sentimental value? For all the adventurer knows, he could be somebody Polymorphed into that skull, or sealed within the body of a Gold Golem. You are certainly given lots of hints that you're going to have to fight something when you put all the pieces together, but the possibility of that something being a Demilich is not put forward.

Lastly, there is no in-game information about Demiliches at all. You cannot go to the Temple of Oghma for a little light reading on insanely powerful Undead whose physical manefestation consists solely of a talking skull. Neither Edwin, with his 18 INT, Haer'Dalis, with his tales of legends and monsters, nor Aerie, who is arguably the oldest person you could have in your party, has a *single* helpful hint about what this Golden Skull might be. Nor can you find any ideas of what a Demilich might actually DO--sure, AD&D gamers who've read the Monstrous Manual would know about their terrible screeching Howl that can cause people to literally die of fright, and their ability to suck living souls into their teeth, but try finding documentation like this in Amn. Maybe if you could recruit Lavok into your party, he could help you out, but until that happens, the only way to find out how to beat Kangaxx is--you guessed it--use powergaming and Reload knowledge until you stumble across something that works.

[Seraph]

All they say is that they are Guardians (immediately translated by the gamer to mean "I have something cool, and you'll have to kill me to get it"), and that you shall never possess whatever it is that they're protecting.

Yes indeed, except for the fact that the Shade Lich and Elemental Lich never say that their purpose is to prevent Kangaxx's rebirth. They specificly say something along the lines of "So your working for Kangaxx (do they use his name?), hes bad news". One can make (a not to great) leap that they are guarding it from Kangaxx. Also, doesn't one of them say something that basicly breaks down to "I've guarded these for a long time"?

Also the "immediatly translated" bit is how a powergamer plays. I generally assume that there someone they are guarding it from. IIRC they even go so far as to let you know that your working for the person they are guarding it from.

There is no evidence to suggest that Kanaxx might be a Demi-Lich.

I (who had very virtualy no knowlage about D&D Liches at the time, I knew they existed, (Ok, I didn't actually know that they were called demi-liches, I just knew liches could turn into these extra powerful skull-thingies) that they were undead, and that they were bad news) was able to figure out what he was (that is a not your average lich, and hense would need weapons better then those that hit an average lich) the first time I encountered him. Floating skull, knows liches, in a tomb, (does he give the 'evil' message, or is that a different one?).

For all the adventurer knows, he could be somebody Polymorphed into that skull, or sealed within the body of a Gold Golem.

He could be anyone for all the adventurer knows, but if it looks like a talking skill, and acts like a talking skull, odds are its probably a talking skull. Similar, if its old like a lich, knows atleast two other liches, and doesn't appear to be living, its probably lich or lich-like.

Lastly, there is no in-game information about Demiliches at all. Neither Edwin, with his 18 INT, Haer'Dalis, with his tales of legends and monsters, nor Aerie, who is arguably the oldest person you could have in your party, has a *single* helpful hint about what this Golden Skull might be.

A character, who spent 20+ years in a library, with a powerful mage as a stepfather and priests as most of the other adults would probably have managed to read a book at some point that delt with demiliches. Espically given the fact that your character was supposed to enjoy stories of epic battles and heros and such, even if he doesn't know everything there is to know about demiliches, between what hes probably been exposed to pre-BGI, and the various perrils he has encountered he should be able to puzzle out a good idea whats going on, I know I managed to the first time I encountered Kangaxx (very, very lightly spoiled w/outside information, I knew that there were more powerful liches then liches, that was about it). Are there any quests where characters had something useful about a quest that didn't involve them a) being directly involved (Jaheria basicly telling you where to go when she is cursed), or b) involved someone they already had heard of (Nalia haveing some somewhat useful advice regarding Firkrag(sp) and even this isnt that much of a hint)

Roleplaying doesn't mean "don't use any knowlage that you wouldn't have in the game" (aka running around like an idiot) it means "dont use any knowlage that your character shouldn't have" which is somewhat of a personal judgement call (but thats why they call it "playing" it is a game afterall). Sure the game doesn't go Kangaxx is a demi-lich, but it does give you enough hints to safely assume that Kangaxx is a really tough character, and most likely is lich like. I can only think of 4 really tough types of monsters in the forgotten realms, and 3 of them (beholders, mind flayers, and dragons) are not capable of fitting the characteristics I listed before. The only option that leaves is lich, and to be more specific a really powerful lich. A normal lich has abilities like lots of magic, immunity from lots of spells, needs moderate +'s to hit. We know our character has fought atleast two liches at this point, so we can assume he has a fair idea of what their like. (I know I did after my first two lich fights in BGII) The next small leap is that a "really powerful lich" will have really powerul lich powers, in otherwords, be immune to more spells, have more magical attacks, and need high +'s to hit.

[Imrahil]

I kinda think we're using the wrong definition for Power-Gamer here. The whole "Reload Knowledge" thing doesn't make a Power-Gamer.

I tend to think of Power-Gaming as, for example, creating a character in Throne of Bhaal, complete with the items there & XP level, then importing that into SoA. Then immediately going & buying/stealing/cheating in/acquiring the best items, rings, boots, scrolls & then absolutely crushing everything in the game.

It may be that we need a middle term, between Role-Player & Power-Gamer.

I tend to fall in the middle myself. I can't, in all honesty, claim to be a pure Role-Player, in that I can't force myself to forget that there's a trap that will kill me right *there* (nor could I Reload & pretend to forget it again & keep killing myself). I fully admit that I have my Thief Search b/c I know a trap is coming up.

I will often choose the conversation path that will give me the best result (as long as it's not an Evil path while I'm playing Good or vice versa).

I will run right to the chest that contains the good loot & not even check the others in the room (thinking de'Arnise Keep here).

OTOH, I don't give my characters all the best equipment, all 18's, & up their HP by +500 right at the start (an extreme example, I know), so I don't consider myself a Power-Gamer.

Sometimes, though, I like to give my characters little advantages, like a Wild Mage Sorcerer, a cool weapon, a Thief->Necromancer, 100 Identify scrolls, a 21 CON, Summon Deva 1/day, 100% Cold Resistance, an early Bag of Holding, etc. (not all in one game, but I've done all of those at one time or another). All of which actually allow me to Role-Play better (at least, IMO).

The term Power-Gaming should be reserved for someone who, e.g. always creates a 100+ point character, starts off with >= +2 equipment, gives their character 75% resistance to everything, etc. & then breezes through the game with no challenge whatsoever.

Otherwise, I'd guess that anyone who's been through the game 3+ times would have to be classified as a Power-Gamer (e.g. anyone who's tried a Kensai & looted the Slave Lords ASAP or a Mage vs. Twisted Rune ASAP or even a Thief who rushes to the Docks to get Renal's quest, etc.).

- Imrahil

[Dundee Slaytern]

Imrahil, what you describing is not a Powergamer, but a Cheater.

Powergamer != Cheater

The only real difference between a Powergamer and Roleplayer is foreknowledge. A Powergamer knows where all the good stuff are and systematically obtains them in the best sequence. A Roleplayer goes with the flow so to speak. A Powergamer often commits acts that are out of character, like a Paladin who refuses charity, or an evil Necromancer being cosy with Rose. A Powergamer strives to be the best, and plays to reach this goal.

A pure Powergamer will not cheat, since it defeats the purpose of powergaming, which is to prove that you can beat the odds and ascend to God-like status in the shortest possible time and with minimal effort. A Powergamer will buff-up before a major battle, and be immuned to most if not all of the enemies' attacks. A Powergamer has a pre-planned tactic for the enemy, and even memorised how the enemy attacks.

Essentially, a Powergamer is a psychic in the game. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

This is not to say that all Powergamers are Munchkin Lords though. Munchkin Lords are the pure Powergamers, to whom the concept of roleplaying is alien. Everything they do is based on the best possible outcome. A Roleplaying Powergamer is a compromise between the two opposite spectrums of the game.

He/she still strives to obtain the best possible results, but within the realm of reasonable roleplay. For example, a Paladin will pay Rampah the 100 gold, even though it is possible with no penalties to pay him nothing, because it is the right thing to do for a Paladin.

[Assassin]

Roleplaying... very difficult to explain... I'd just say that it's as if you were there, what would you do? Personally, actually, if a tomb started to talk to me, I'd run the hell out of that place...

I'm sort of both. I don't deceive in any way. I don't kill civilians for jokes. I won't kill anyone that doesn't initiate battle with me, or follows my moral beliefs. I will check every chest for loot. However, I won't let my character die because of that nasty trap, for the sake of 'Well, I shouldn't know that it's there, so I'll just die now'. I will cast spells to provoke the Cowled Wizards (bah... I hate authority) I will stretch my abilities to beat a certain creature at a lower level, never backing out. Once I start a quest, I will seek its end. I will use my fore-knowledge to help me in certain situations. I will use CTRL-J to help me go across the map (but not in tactical situations). I'm sort of both, a powergamer and a roleplayer.

[ 04-09-2003, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

[Imrahil]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: ... Essentially, a Powergamer is a psychic in the game. [img]tongue.gif[/img] ... For example, a Paladin will pay Rampah the 100 gold, even though it is possible with no penalties to pay him nothing, because it is the right thing to do for a Paladin.

I guess then it may be that I'm having a problem with the Role-Playing definition rather than the Power-Gaming side, then (in that I see your distinction between Power-Gaming & Cheating, but am still having problems with "ignoring" Reload Knowledge).

Aren't we all (multi-timers) Power-Gamers, then? You can't make yourself forget stuff (e.g. how to get the Genie Bottle in Chateau Irenicus - you could, I guess, wander around a bit "looking" before going to where you already know it is).

I see your point in, say, heading straight for Twisted Rune if you are a Mage, but how do legitimately distinguish that from Role-Playing "oh, look what I stumbled across while investigating the Skinner Murders..."? It just seems way too fine a line for me in that only first-timers could truly be considered Role-Players.

Otherwise it's just a matter of timing - i.e. convincing yourself when it'd be a "realistic" time for you to stumble across something.

Also, even Role-Players would have a hard time convincing themselves to enter a battle they know is going to kill them (even first-timers won't do this after a few Reloads), so how do you distinguish "being prepared" for a battle you don't really know about from Power-Gaming it? A good example might be a fresh party vs. the City Gates-who-you-get-Daystar-from encounter - theoretically you should be no more worried than in the Sea's Bounty, right? But who actually plays that way, other than first-timers?

- Imrahil

[Dundee Slaytern]

Oooo... the whole Twisted Rune shennigans. I admit that is quite a tough nut to crack without straining the constraints of roleplay. Assuming you Baldurdash Fixpacked your game( and everybody should), roleplaying the entire event of the Twisted Rune becomes much more believable.

Game Spoilers
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It all begins at the Copper Coronet... where you free the slaves. Hendek informs you of the slaves at the grounded ship in the slums. You go pay them a visit.

Next comes the Tanner murders, where the Twisted Rune is mentioned. The player will have to assume that he/she read in a journal somewhere in the Tanner's house regarding a possible Guarded Compound in the Temple District where the slavers have a stronghold.

Killing Koshi from the Guarded Compound reveals an unique Rogue Stone, which leads the player to the Bridge District, where of course... the Twisted Rune is. You will have to search door by door of course.

If you have Nalia in your party( what were you thinking?!?! [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), you get even more clues about the connections inbetween the slavers and the Twisted Rune.

[Radek]

There are remarkable points in the posts of Imrahil and Dundee Slaytern.
What forced me to post my answer? We are seeing again and again the following picture: There are two groups of players. One of them - the good guys - are so called "role players". This group is completely different from the second group - the bad guys - called "power gamers". The posters FEAR that they are becoming power gamers and ask the others, whether they really have fallen so low that they have to count themselves to the worst that can be met among computer game players...
But it's different. Both concepts, "role player" and "power gamer" are rather nonsense. For example, everybody, who tries to improve his play style using his current knowledge about the game, is a "power gamer".
I think the problem is elsewehre. We can cheat and start the game with level 40 characters with 500 HPs and with +30 weapon in every hand available. Or, we can ignore the storyline and the classes and races chosen for the party and play the game as some hack'n'slash stupidity like Doom. But we can also play the game as a CRPG taking into account alignments, classes, races and the storyline. I think the last approach is the best and that it does not prevent anybody from searching optimal ways to victory. A paladin can behave as a paladin even if he knows which monster is waiting behind the corner. On the other hand, a paladin should never behave like an assassin.
Therefore, don't ask whether you are a "role player" or a "power gamer". You are both. Ask rather whether you are playing a CRPG.

[Bahamut]

well, in the long run you end up like a powergamer... imean playing the game so much that you don't have to think what to do anymore... just bam bam and bam... done... [img]smile.gif[/img]

just because you know what will happen it doesn't necessarily mean you are one...