Smoking ban

[Yorick]

I can't believe I have to go to this much effort to defend the logical statement "True tolerance tolerates intolerance".

Because it goes against the grain of American political correctness is precisely the point! I wouldn't be making it if American media types weren't railing on about intolerance - such as Mel Gobsons Passion, yet exhibiting intolerance of freedom of expression, intolerant of religious expression, intolerance of a person holding the bible to be true, and wanting to make an artistic expression of that.

I'm pointing out a logical problem with the current language used.

What the heck is wrong with challenging held notions? Are we so locked down in our ideas we can't take someone turning it around so we see the picture from another angle?

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Yorick: What the heck is wrong with challenging held notions? Are we so locked down in our ideas we can't take someone turning it around so we see the picture from another angle?

Curious and Ironic: That is exactly what I have been doing.

Are you the only one allowed to do this or something?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Why is it so hard for you to just agree to disagree with me? Why do you insist that I see it your way? Why, in your zest to force your opinion at me, must you must attack my character and moral perspective by calling me a hypocrite, implying I think I am morally better than those who disagree with me, ect.? Why do you keep avoiding questions about this?

I'm not attacking your character, I'm pointing out a logical consequence of fighting fire with fire.

What is your problem? There is no huge character flaw in being hypocritical in a certain area. Are you perfect? Why seek perfection? Can't you deal with the possibility you MIGHT be engaging in the very activity you hate?

There are times when I enjoy having a flaw of mine pointed out. It means I can do two things.
1.Stay humble.
2.Fix it.

I've said before I like you, and we're actually more similar than we realise. I never made this personal, and hold no ill toward you. I was making generalised statements about the illogicality of conflicts such as this. You're the one who's gone and gotten all hurt it seems.

Let bygones be bygones mate.

In churches we deal with this conflict all the time.

We are told to not be judgemental. That we are judged according to how we judge. The parable of the man forgiven of a huge debt who goes out and throws another guy in prison for owing a much smaller amount is in immediate consciouness quite regularly.

A "get out gaol free" card, might being nonjudgemental of peoples judgementalism.

As a christian I can get all hung up about how so many christians go around condemning people for sin, yet if I do, I am doing the same thing. I have in the past had to correct this. I've caught myself in my own hypocrisy. No big deal. It's part of being human, and can provide for some humorous self analysis.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: Why is it so hard for you to just agree to disagree with me? Why do you insist that I see it your way? Why, in your zest to force your opinion at me, must you must attack my character and moral perspective by calling me a hypocrite, implying I think I am morally better than those who disagree with me, ect.? Why do you keep avoiding questions about this?

I'm not attacking your character, I'm pointing out a logical consequence of fighting fire with fire.

What is your problem? There is no huge character flaw in being hypocritical in a certain area. Are you perfect? Why seek perfection? Can't you deal with the possibility you MIGHT be engaging in the very activity you hate?

[/QUOTE]Uh, thanks, but NO thanks for the unsolicited (and erroneous) "advice".

I do wonder how in the first sentence you state you are not attacking my character and then proceed to ask me what is my problem seeing as how hypocrisy is "no huge character flaw"

My personal process of character growth and self-evalutation is NONE OF YOUR F-ING BUSINESS and is no topic I would want to discuss with you in the first place.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Why won't you just agree to disagree? Why not just accept I have a different perspective that differs from the dictionary defintion and doesn't fit your logic?

You disagreed with me. I made the statement "True tolerance tolerates intolerance" and then you were the one unable to tolerate my viewpoint and leave it unchallenged on the forum.

And now, you cite "different perspectives" and yet acknowledge you don't care about the dictionary definition.

No wonder there is a problem. If you change the meaning of a word, we are no longer speaking the same language. Words exist to translate one idea to another. Dictionaries give clarity and guidelines on how humans use that word. I can't help it if you're reinventing the word all by yourself in Boston. My language - English - has a meaning. I can't read your mind. If you want to be understood, use the commonly accepted meaning, or admit you're wrong.

As too the pot calling the kettle black, there are HUNDREDS of times on this forum alone, where I've admitted mistake, error and apologised unreservedly. The last time to Grojlach re. Metallica. Being wrong is no big deal to me Chewbacca, yet here you are, faced with a dictionary definition and logic that proves you're wrong, and you can't do it, holding up a "different perspectives" line....

sheesh.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: Why won't you just agree to disagree? Why not just accept I have a different perspective that differs from the dictionary defintion and doesn't fit your logic?

You disagreed with me. I made the statement "True tolerance tolerates intolerance" and then you were the one unable to tolerate my viewpoint and leave it unchallenged on the forum.

And now, you cite "different perspectives" and yet acknowledge you don't care about the dictionary definition.

No wonder there is a problem. If you change the meaning of a word, we are no longer speaking the same language. Words exist to translate one idea to another. Dictionaries give clarity and guidelines on how humans use that word. I can't help it if you're reinventing the word all by yourself in Boston. My language - English - has a meaning. I can't read your mind. If you want to be understood, use the commonly accepted meaning, or admit you're wrong.

As too the pot calling the kettle black, there are HUNDREDS of times on this forum alone, where I've admitted mistake, error and apologised unreservedly. The last time to Grojlach re. Metallica. Being wrong is no big deal to me Chewbacca, yet here you are, faced with a dictionary definition and logic that proves you're wrong, and you can't do it, holding up a "different perspectives" line....

sheesh. [/QUOTE]Actually I adressed both the dictionary and "logic" a few posts back where I also stated I had no problem with my perspective co-existing right along side yours even if I disagreed.

[Chewbacca]

[quote]Originally posted by Yorick:

Originally posted by Chewbacca: You disagreed with me. I made the statement "True tolerance tolerates intolerance" and then you were the one unable to tolerate my viewpoint and leave it unchallenged on the forum.

I am perfectly able to tolerate your veiwpoint, even if I challenge it and clarify why I disagree, why I think it is incorrect in a similiar way that tolerance challenging intolerance is not intolerance.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Uh, thanks, but NO thanks for the unsolicited (and erroneous) "advice".

Where did I give advice, and how are you determining if it is erroneous?

I do wonder how in the first sentence you state you are not attacking my character and then proceed to ask me what is my problem seeing as how hypocrisy is "no huge character flaw" My personal process of character growth and self-evalutation is NONE OF YOUR F-ING BUSINESS and is no topic I would want to discuss with you in the first place.

Then why argue with me on a forum? What do you expect? You're in control of the situation. You talk, I analyse. If that analysis comes out in conversation, that's a natural result of who I am, and the nature of written discussion.

Are you being intolerant of me Chewbacca?

I'm sure a moderator will come along and give us both recommendations for personal growth. It's the way it is.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: tolerance challenging intolerance is not intolerance.

Well I'm out of here. If you want to pursue this self defeating logic and continue to warp the english language do so. I've had my vent about western society. If you want to remain speaking your own language that's no skin off my nose.

Bye

[ 04-09-2004, 04:24 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Yorick: I'm sure a moderator will come along and give us both recommendations for personal growth. It's the way it is.

I hope not. The blood is only just starting to fly! This is great! Keep going