Judge orders Wells Fargo to pay back $203M in fees

[Bungleau]

For me, the answer to that question is in a request: receipt, please. I collect receipts from all electronic transactions and dump them when they're no longer needed. To make life easier, I have two transaction receipt folders: current year and prior year. Every January PY gets shredded and CY moves to PY. If ever I need anything, it's in there.

I made the switch to a credit union years ago, prompted by my bank and fees.

They hit me with a bunch of fees one month, the month we were looking to buy our first house. There was a timing issue that I hadn't realized that resulted in both my checking and savings accounts being below the bank's minimums at one point during the month. I called them to task on it, and they went through and explained some of the fees.

There was some amount of fee left un-explained, and I remember that it ended in a nickel -- 4.95, 10.15... I don't know. But the last digit was a five.

And they did not have a *SINGLE* fee that ended in a 5! Everything ended in dimes... so there was no mathematical way they could have created that fee!

And when the VP dumbly asked "Would you like us to refund that", I said "Yes".... of course. And then left the bank to go open an account at the credit union our company was affiliated with. Last time I used a bank.

My boss said I should have responded, "No. Refund them all, or I'll move my business elsewhere". Don't know if it would have helped, but it would have gotten the message across.

So what does this support in this thread? Nothing, I'm sure... other than the same type of attitude. And voting with your feet... just because you have mortgages or credit cards with them doesn't mean you have to stay. Even today, credit cards are easily available... even at your local credit union

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Bungleau So what does this support in this thread? Nothing, I'm sure... other than the same type of attitude. And voting with your feet... just because you have mortgages or credit cards with them doesn't mean you have to stay. Even today, credit cards are easily available... even at your local credit union

No, I don't have to stay. But I want to. Because with them, I can handle my mortages via instant online transfers, and they handle my cards, and my statements all in the same place. The fact that I have all these things with the same bank in good standing allows me to get more credit, or if I needed a loan etc. All these things put me in good standing with my bank and show me as a loyal and trusted customer with no guesswork involved as I have built up a good rep. with them.

Yet, at times, they have not done me the same courtesy. I want to stay, but I don't want to be fucked because I wanna use their services. I keep receipts of important purchases, and (I like to think) recent small ones are in the house somewhere, but not for every single time I swipe a card, no. Some places don't give you receipts on small items. They look at you in horror if you ask for one. It's just not practical. I ain't saying it's not right , I'm saying it just doesn't work like that. I know what I could do, but I just think it sux, is all. Either ways, it's not like WF is the only bank that screws their customers over. I could go and start fresh elsewhere only to discover the same practices - or even worse, new ones.

[Bungleau]

It's a trade-off of convenience. And for reference, I've got accounts at two credit unions (one personal, one business), two different credit cards (affiliated with neither CU), a mortgage (originated at a CU, but owned by someone else), and two vehicle loans (with one of the CUs).

I can also handle everything on-line with these financial institutions. I can check balances, move money, pay bills, see history... the works. It does require multiple web sites, but that's my trade-off for convenience. Neither right nor wrong... just a trade-off.

I will say, however, that the CU is much more likely, IMHO, to recognize me as an individual than a bank is. When I went to sell my first house after moving out here, my boss had a $2000 money order that he loaned to me to complete the payment. How and why he had it, I have no clue However, my CU allowed me to cash it, even though according to "regulations", it should have sat for a couple of days so they could make sure the funds cleared.

With a bank, I would have expected a "Sorry... we have to follow the rules".

With my CU, it was evaluating the transaction, evaluating me, and bending.

I don't believe I'd get the same "bend" with a bank unless I had a substantial (as in well more than $100,000) amount of assets with them. And "assets" would be cash and perhaps mortgages, I'm thinking... credit cards are not noteworthy enough for them to considering bending the rules.

Bending the *customer*, in a different way... well, that's what the OP is about, isn't it?

[Cerek]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior Which, I just said. Do you write every purchase you ever made down?

Yes, I do. I still use my checkbook for most purchases and record the transaction as I make it. If I use me debit card, I always ask for a receipt so I can record it in the checkbook when I get home. I don't care if the cashier gives me a dirty look for making him/her do their job. Asking for a receipt is a very reasonable request and very easy for them to do. It is also part of their job.

I am courteous of others, but I don't let cashiers intimidate me into not asking for receipt and I don't let other customers intimidate me into NOT taking the few seconds required to write the transaction in my checkbook.

Saying it isn't practical is just an excuse. The only thing that isn't practical is leaving the responsibility of recording transactions to your financial institution.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Bungleau It's a trade-off of convenience. And for reference, I've got accounts at two credit unions (one personal, one business), two different credit cards (affiliated with neither CU), a mortgage (originated at a CU, but owned by someone else), and two vehicle loans (with one of the CUs). I can also handle everything on-line with these financial institutions. I can check balances, move money, pay bills, see history... the works. It does require multiple web sites, but that's my trade-off for convenience. Neither right nor wrong... just a trade-off. I will say, however, that the CU is much more likely, IMHO, to recognize me as an individual than a bank is. When I went to sell my first house after moving out here, my boss had a $2000 money order that he loaned to me to complete the payment. How and why he had it, I have no clue However, my CU allowed me to cash it, even though according to "regulations", it should have sat for a couple of days so they could make sure the funds cleared. With a bank, I would have expected a "Sorry... we have to follow the rules". With my CU, it was evaluating the transaction, evaluating me, and bending. I don't believe I'd get the same "bend" with a bank unless I had a substantial (as in well more than $100,000) amount of assets with them. And "assets" would be cash and perhaps mortgages, I'm thinking... credit cards are not noteworthy enough for them to considering bending the rules. Bending the *customer*, in a different way... well, that's what the OP is about, isn't it?

Well, a CU seems to work for you. CU's are more of a smaller, personable business anyways. But then, deceptive practices can seep into any business at any time. I am not really looking to move to a CU, I am just bitching about something a judge happend to finally recognize. Apparently, I was not the only one. I'm glad you found something that works for you.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Cerek Yes, I do. I still use my checkbook for most purchases and record the transaction as I make it.

So you still have your own self-made paper-trail from say, a soda you purchased this time last year at a store when you were thirsty? Or let's say if you needed milk for a baby at 4am while half asleep and had to run out in the middle of the night, you have all these documented and retained?

If I use me debit card, I always ask for a receipt so I can record it in the checkbook when I get home. I don't care if the cashier gives me a dirty look for making him/her do their job. Asking for a receipt is a very reasonable request and very easy for them to do. It is also part of their job.

But, see, that's what I'm saying. You are one of those people I mentioned earlier, who use chequebooks at the supermarket, writing the whole thing down as you do so and likely holding up the line as I tap my feet in frustration because I am ready to swipe my card and get out of the endless crowds ASAP. This old woman I saw recently was meticulously documenting her finances at the till, as five of us queued behind her and sighed in unison. I thought "Shit, why did I have to pick this line?". She was the only one there when I arrived, yet by the time she had finished another 5 other people at the cashout next to me had already gone through and were in their cars.

Saying it isn't practical is just an excuse. The only thing that isn't practical is leaving the responsibility of recording transactions to your financial institution.

But, given the above example I just mentioned with the old lady, you can clearly see it is NOT practical. Don't get me wrong, it is not her fault. And btw it's is not your fault. Hell, you will both have a better handle on your money than most people, because you take the time to do so. You also say you don't care if the cashier gives you dirty looks, and I am assuming that extends to whether the people behind you do. And, I agree with you, I think you are right to not care because I wouldn't either. But doesn't it suck that the very nature of banking and stores etc. are based around such a fast pace? You have to come off as annoying to others in order to keep a handle on your cash. Or, in worst cases, assert yourself just because you don't want to lose count of where your money is going?

So I disagree on the fact that saying it isn't practical is an excuse. It is not practical. It may be cautious. It may be wise. But it ain't practical given the world we live in now. And again, it ain't your fault a better way cannot be achieved.

Overall, what I am bitching about is if I trust these people with my money, as so many millions do, why should I always be second guessing them and keeping my own tabs on it to the penny? I'm not being naive. I know I must do the best I can - and from the sounds of it you take more time on it than I do, but again...doesn't it just suck that we have to be so vigilant to the point where our methods delay us and rub people the wrong way?

[Cerek]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior So you still have your own self-made paper-trail from say, a soda you purchased this time last year at a store when you were thirsty? Or let's say if you needed milk for a baby at 4am while half asleep and had to run out in the middle of the night, you have all these documented and retained?

I don't keep a record of cash transactions unless it's an item I might have to return (like a shirt, pair of shoes, DVD, etc). In that case, I WILL make sure I get a receipt for the purchase and keep the receipt until I know the item will work for me. Trivial purchases made with cash (the coke at the store or the milk at 4am), I do NOT write down, because I can look in my wallet to see how much money I have left.

So perhaps I should clarify that I write down all non-cash transactions, because whether I write a check or use my debit card, the funds come from the same account and I want to make sure I don't "spend" more than I have left. With cash, I can't spend more than I have left, so I don't need to record every transaction.

However, I DO have ALL the receipts for almost every purchase I've made (especially regarding the boys) since my divorce 4 years ago. I keep them in envelopes for each month.

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior But, see, that's what I'm saying. You are one of those people I mentioned earlier, who use chequebooks at the supermarket, writing the whole thing down as you do so and likely holding up the line as I tap my feet in frustration because I am ready to swipe my card and get out of the endless crowds ASAP. This old woman I saw recently was meticulously documenting her finances at the till, as five of us queued behind her and sighed in unison. I thought "Shit, why did I have to pick this line?". She was the only one there when I arrived, yet by the time she had finished another 5 other people at the cashout next to me had already gone through and were in their cars. But, given the above example I just mentioned with the old lady, you can clearly see it is NOT practical. Don't get me wrong, it is not her fault. And btw it's is not your fault. Hell, you will both have a better handle on your money than most people, because you take the time to do so. You also say you don't care if the cashier gives you dirty looks, and I am assuming that extends to whether the people behind you do. And, I agree with you, I think you are right to not care because I wouldn't either. But doesn't it suck that the very nature of banking and stores etc. are based around such a fast pace? You have to come off as annoying to others in order to keep a handle on your cash. Or, in worst cases, assert yourself just because you don't want to lose count of where your money is going? So I disagree on the fact that saying it isn't practical is an excuse. It is not practical. It may be cautious. It may be wise. But it ain't practical given the world we live in now. And again, it ain't your fault a better way cannot be achieved. Overall, what I am bitching about is if I trust these people with my money, as so many millions do, why should I always be second guessing them and keeping my own tabs on it to the penny? I'm not being naive. I know I must do the best I can - and from the sounds of it you take more time on it than I do, but again...doesn't it just suck that we have to be so vigilant to the point where our methods delay us and rub people the wrong way?

We just have a different perspective on this. Just because our society tries to IMPLY it isn't practical doesn't mean it isn't. I noticed commercials several years ago using the same basic logic you're describing, showing a line of people *sighing* in frustration as the person in front of them used cash (which means the cashier actually has to make change) or a check (which means the person has to record the transaction in their checkbook). VISA did a series of commercials where everything is flowing smoothly and rapidly until that one person does NOT use their debit card and literally (in the ad) brings everything to a screeching halt. The person then has to endure the glares the cashier and other customers as the process creeeeeeeeps along, until the next person (thankfully) gets things back on track by taking out their debit card and getting everything moving again.

Sorry, but the implied guilt-trip mentality simply does not work on me. As you said, it is NOT my fault you are in a hurry to get somewhere else. If you're in that big of a hurry, you should have left the house sooner. I'm not going to risk forgetting to write a transaction down (and possible incur fees from my bank) because the people in line are too impatient to wait the 20-30 seconds it takes for me to do that.

It may seem callous, but your frustration is NOT my problem. ("you" meaning other customers in general, not you specifically)

Does it suck that I have to be so vigilant about how much money I have in the bank? No. It's MY responsibility to keep up with it. After all, nobody is going to care how much money I have left NEARLY as much as I will.

Several years ago, I discovered my insurance company had mistakenly charged an accident to my policy that I never had and I had been paying increased premiums for almost 3 years because of it. I didn't notice it earlier because I HAD gotten several traffic tickets in a two-year span that also increased my premium, so I thought it was because of the tickets.

When I discovered the mistake, I had to go back myself to provide "proof" I never had the accident being charged against me. This was before the internet, so it took some legwork and a number of phone calls, but I DID provide the documentation and received a retroactive refund for the full amount I had overpaid. (actually, they just applied the resulting credit against my next premium payment, but it was the same thing).

I understand how busy life can get and, despite my diligence, I DO forget to write down a check every now and then. Therefore, I always use carbon checks so I have a copy in hand, just in case.

[Timber Loftis]

Which, I just said. Do you write every purchase you ever made down?

I would certainly write down every cent of money into and out of my bank account. Now, I certainly do not record all my transactions. But I also don't swipe a card tied to my bank account. Try using a credit card for your daily swipe transactions and then paying that off with one check every month. In this way, you will account for all money coming out of your bank account -- which is something you need to do.

[Bungleau]

Heh... holy war, take two...

I don't disagree with your decisions or perspective, SW. What works for you works for you, simply put. Being a different person, I sometimes make different decisions. When I switched to my credit union years ago, they had a policy where they would automatically take money from savings and put it into checking if you had an overdraft. At no charge

It took me a while, but a friend explained that's why she *never* kept money in checking... all in savings, and the CU would take it out when needed.

They've changed over the years... they now charge $3 for each adjustment they need to make. But it's one adjustment per day... if I have ten checks, they add 'em up and charge me $3. So I no longer keep everything in savings... but don't get dinged badly if there's less in checking than is needed.

Noting your location stating Ireland, I have no clue if there are CUs over there. S'pose I could google it to find out, but I'm lazy right now So like I said... choices that work for you... just fine.

As for the lady taking forever to balance her checkbook, I have an issue with that as well. And there are ways around it (of course ).

I confess I haven't written in a check register for years... at least a decade, and almost two. When I started using Quicken (and its predecessors) for finances, I realized I was doing the same thing in two places... and making *more* mistakes in the checkbook. I stopped writing in the checkbook, switching over to duplicate checks so I don't have to remember what was written.

BTW, when I first started using accounting software (Moneycounts, way before Quicken), I found a mistake in the first three months. My bank at the time had not cleared a deposit I made. First reconciliation, no big deal. After the second, when it was still outstanding... big question.

Brought my receipt to them and in essence, they said, "We had this deposit and couldn't figure out who it belonged to. So we kept it over here, waiting for someone to ask for it."

I did. Finally. Had I not known, they would have kept it forever. Yet another reason it pays to get and keep those receipts, annoying though it might be. At the time, that was only a $40 deposit. But based on my bank account at that time, that $40 could have been the difference between a dozen checks bouncing (or not).

Sounds like Cerek has to take it up a notch, just to be sure he's armed and prepared for anything with his ex. Sad to say, evidence is sometimes weighed, and not actually read. In either case, he would be covered

And finally, I'm like TL. Cash purchases... meh. Don't care, unless I might need to return it. Credit cards and checks... yep.

Onward! No one's right, no one's wrong... and everyone has a take on it

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Cerek I don't keep a record of cash transactions unless it's an item I might have to return (like a shirt, pair of shoes, DVD, etc). In that case, I WILL make sure I get a receipt for the purchase and keep the receipt until I know the item will work for me. Trivial purchases made with cash (the coke at the store or the milk at 4am), I do NOT write down, because I can look in my wallet to see how much money I have left. So perhaps I should clarify that I write down all non-cash transactions, because whether I write a check or use my debit card, the funds come from the same account and I want to make sure I don't "spend" more than I have left. With cash, I can't spend more than I have left, so I don't need to record every transaction. However, I DO have ALL the receipts for almost every purchase I've made (especially regarding the boys) since my divorce 4 years ago. I keep them in envelopes for each month.

Okay, see this sounds a bit more realistic. While I don't keep every single receipt ever of something returnable, I have and do keep most.

Although sometimes I don't have cash on me if I need something in an emergency - even if it's a bottle of water - and I will use my cards or w/e. I also feel it is safer to keep a card on me rather than notes or coins, not because of crime but more so because of a fear of losing/leaving it. With my cards I can just cancel them as soon as I realize and I don't lose any cash. If I lose $100 I can retrace my steps but if I can't find it it's gone forever in the wind. If someone even used my cards fraudulantly I can file a claim and get the charges waivered. If I lose mine I can get another one and a temp. one while I wait for the other to come in. So security, is another big one.

We just have a different perspective on this. Just because our society tries to IMPLY it isn't practical doesn't mean it isn't. I noticed commercials several years ago using the same basic logic you're describing, showing a line of people *sighing* in frustration as the person in front of them used cash (which means the cashier actually has to make change) or a check (which means the person has to record the transaction in their checkbook). VISA did a series of commercials where everything is flowing smoothly and rapidly until that one person does NOT use their debit card and literally (in the ad) brings everything to a screeching halt. The person then has to endure the glares the cashier and other customers as the process creeeeeeeeps along, until the next person (thankfully) gets things back on track by taking out their debit card and getting everything moving again. Sorry, but the implied guilt-trip mentality simply does not work on me. As you said, it is NOT my fault you are in a hurry to get somewhere else. If you're in that big of a hurry, you should have left the house sooner. I'm not going to risk forgetting to write a transaction down (and possible incur fees from my bank) because the people in line are too impatient to wait the 20-30 seconds it takes for me to do that. It may seem callous, but your frustration is NOT my problem. ("you" meaning other customers in general, not you specifically)

Yes we do have a different view on this. I think it's more than an implication of impracticality. When it is a daily reality, it becomes something more than a hypothetical and I feel, by practice it becomes impractical. *Shrug* Who cares? We both know where we're coming from here regardless.

Does it suck that I have to be so vigilant about how much money I have in the bank? No. It's MY responsibility to keep up with it. After all, nobody is going to care how much money I have left NEARLY as much as I will.

Let me rephrase then, because I am not endorsing lack of personal responsibility but rather a little less paranoia in our lives. Wouldn't it be nice if your financial instituition was on your side, and trustworthy to the point where you could have the piece of mind to not monitor your bank and transactions like a hawk for fear that they will find a way to almost "cheat" your money away like we saw in the OP? Just a dream, of course but it would be nice.